This is a mirror of Stephen Goldin’s pages from SFF.net about Marion Zimmer Bradley. More notes here.
To take these points in order (with Lisa’ comments in italics):
We have better things to do with out time then worry about Goldin’s lies
Any lies on the site are Marion’s and Lisa’s. I present Marion’s and Lisa’s testimonies, given under oath, verbatim. I also give my interpretations. People are free to devise their own interpretations. Note: For those who don’t know, Lisa Waters earns a significant part of her income from administering Marion’s estate. If too many people learn the truth about Marion, Lisa’s meal ticket may suffer. Unlike Lisa, I have no incentive to lie.
We suspect that by putting her name on a site and filling it with the most disgusting contents he can come up with, he’s hoping that we’ll offer him a lot of money for the rights to the domain name, so we feel out best course is to ignore him.
I agree that what Marion and Lisa say about themselves, in their own words given under oath, is pretty disgusting. As for the domain name, Mary and I wanted to make sure that Marion’s readers could find the site and learn the truth. Frankly, I don’t believe the estate has enough money to tempt us to sell the domain name.
Marion Zimmer Bradley married Walter Breen on 6/3/1964. They had two children, but sometime in the late 60s Walter was ill and became impotent (at least as far as Marion knew). They separated in 1979.
I can certainly believe Walter, a man who preferred sex with young children, was impotent with Marion. That doesn’t mean he was harmless. Marion’s and Walter’s separation was not a legal one, and Marion continued to house and support him until he was imprisoned after he was convicted of molesting yet another child after Ken.
In or about March of 1989, Walter allegedly molested a 12-year-old boy
Not “allegedly.” Walter admitted and was convicted for molestation in a court of law. Actually, Ken was 8 years old when Walter began molesting him, and Ken was 11 when Walter was finally arrested for it. This was not a one-time thing.
who had the misfortune to be the son of Mary Mason, who was married to Stephen Goldin — and, for all I know, still is, although neither of them seems to regard fidelity as part of marriage. God only knows what the poor kid learned about sex from them.
Yes, Mary and I are still happily married after more than 13 years. (Thanks for caring, Lisa.) In her deposition, Lisa says, “I was brought up to believe that other people’s sex lives were none of my business.” I guess that only applies to child molesters like Walter and Marion, though. She’s definitely not curious about them. She’s made a lifelong habit of not caring how many children they hurt.
The molestation apparently took place at their house, with Mary in the next room, which strongly implies that the child thought his mother either would approve or wouldn’t care. (Obviously, even a raised voice would have been audible to her.)
Two years after the molestations started, one of the many molestations did indeed occur there. Twelve years after learning of this, Mary still has nightmares more than once each night about not being able to find and save her son. Ken has since testified that by then Walter told him Ken would go to jail if he told. Over the years, Walter had brainwashed Ken into thinking that he, Ken, would be severely punished if he let anyone know what was happening. Ken was terrified to report the crimes (as is common for molested children), which was why the molestations could go on for so long.
Marion found out about this in October 1989 (I was the one who told her, and I have no reason whatsoever to believe she knew anything about it before then; she was extremely upset)
Lisa has trouble keeping her story straight. In Lisa’s own deposition, she swears under oath that she first heard about the molestation from Marion. Of course, she changes this story several times. She has to be lying at one point or the other because her stories, even the ones under oath, contradict one another. You can decide whether she lied to the court or whether she’s lying to you.
She immediately divorced him, and she cooperated with the police investigation.
Marion told Walter she would divorce him if he was arrested again. Ken’s molestation was Walter’s third felony conviction. Of course, as Marion admits in her own testimony, she’d spent the previous 25 or so years lying about it and covering up Walter’s child molestations.
In 1990, Mary, acting as her son’s guardian ad litem, filed suit against Walter, but then let the suit drag out (she didn’t show up for court hearings, moved without telling her lawyer, and so forth). In 1993 Walter died in jail, with the suit still pending. Nobody sued Marion then, or made any suggestion that this was in any way her fault.
Mary attended every hearing she was informed of. The lawyer who handled the original case was sued for malpractice specifically because he didn’t sue Marion and Lisa, or properly investigate and push the suit. He made a cash settlement to Ken for his malpractice. Does Lisa hold Mary responsible for that lawyer’s incompetence?
As to the case dragging out, Mary offered a very fair settlement (far less than what Ken eventually got) if they would settle quickly so Ken would have some money to get proper timely psychological counseling. Elizabeth Waters (as the controller of Walter’s funds) and the estate used every delaying action they could think of to prevent that. As a result, Ken’s therapy was set back enormously and he is still very troubled.
In 1996, after Marion had suffered several more strokes and was dying of congestive heart failure (i.e. when she was too sick to defend herself)
We’d have sued Marion in 1985 for child endangerment if we knew then what we know now. The timing was based on two different things: first, Ken got a competent attorney; and second, Ken attained his majority and was able to file a suit on his own. Marion’s health had nothing to do with the decision, and Mary and I had nothing to say about it. We were only informed months after the suits had been filed.
they got a new lawyer and sued both Marion and me, claiming that we had known about Walter’s crimes (citing an arrest — not a conviction — in New Jersey when I was in elementary school in Connecticut and Marion was a housewife in a very small town in Texas and neither of us had ever heard of Walter), and that we had told Mary Mason that it was safe to leave her child with Walter. (I did not meet Mary Mason until September 1989 and, as far as I know, Marion never met her. Neither of us ever met the child.) By this time, he was over 18, which meant that any settlement would not automatically be tied up by the court and used only for his benefit.
There are so many lies here it’s hard to know where to begin. The New Jersey case was indeed a conviction, not merely an arrest. Lisa has seen the papers herself, and testified to that in her deposition, so she is obviously lying now. Mary Mason has never, ever, ever sued either Marion or Lisa; that was done by Ken, acting for himself. And it doesn’t matter in the least that Marion was a housewife in Texas when Walter committed the crimes in New Jersey in 1954; she was busy in the mid-50s with her own federal felony conviction for child pornography. The fact is that she knew about it long before she vouched that Walter would never harm children, and thus helped convince us that it was safe to let Ken spend time in Walter’s company. Marion did not tell Mary this directly to her face. We had asked our friend, Kitty Crowe (who had been Marion’s secretary for something like 10 years), to ask Marion on our behalf. Marion lied to Kitty, an old friend. Marion apparently was in the habit of lying to her friends where Walter was concerned.
The suits Ken brought against Marion and Lisa were for negligence. They were both owners of property on which Walter committed his crimes. Both women had tons of prior evidence that Walter molested children. The testimony of both these women shows that they had heard plenty of stories that would have caused any reasonable person to worry about the safety of children around Walter. Click here to learn of some. Despite this knowledge, they took no steps whatsoever to prevent Walter from molesting more children on their property. That was what the suit was about.
The entire amount of the settlement (after attorney’s fees) has been placed in the Kenneth J. Smith trust fund, administered by his attorney. Mary and I have not and will not receive anything from it. And since Mary Mason was not involved in this suit, what possible bearing does it have whether the settlement would automatically be tied up or not?
After three years of discovery (which put Marion in the hospital twice),
Lisa just said we waited until Marion was on the verge of imminent death to sue her. Suddenly 3 years have dragged by (during which Marion supposedly churned out a couple of books, even though it’s common knowledge they were actually written by other people). Marion and Lisa (and their insurance company) were the ones who dragged the process out; we were hoping for a quick settlement so Ken could afford the counseling he needed. The delays were entirely caused by their stalling. Ken’s attorney was perfectly willing to have the depositions be taken in Marion’s own house, in her own bed, to make it easier on her. Marion’s lawyers didn’t want that to happen, because if the lawyer got into the house he might see how wealthy Marion truly was. (She was a multimillionaire at this time.) Instead, her lawyers insisted she leave her home and travel to a more remote location. If anything caused her to go into the hospital, it could well have been that.
the lawyer finally figured out that I was innocent of their claims,
Chris Dolan, Ken’s attorney, does not believe Lisa is innocent. He considers her a liar, a pervert, a perjurer and a danger to others.
and that he was in trouble if I followed through on my threat to sue him for malicious prosecution. (I was tempted, but I’m a Christian and we’re supposed to forgive our enemies.)
This fine “Christian” woman somehow neglects to mention that she filed a spiteful counterclaim against Mary Mason (who had never harmed her), claiming somehow that Ken’s molestation was his mother’s fault! Lisa never explained how she, a “family” member who lived in proximity to Walter for many years, could not know about Walter’s disposition, while Mary, living a hundred miles away, knew about it and didn’t care. The simple fact is she hoped that by threatening Mary, it would make Ken drop his suit. Lisa’s suit was a baseless lie from start to finish, and as part of the ultimate settlement it was dismissed “with prejudice,” meaning Lisa can never try to make that claim again.
This “Christian” woman also neglects to mention that she herself filed a lawsuit against Marion, claiming that the whole thing was Marion’s fault. Marion likewise filed suit against Lisa. Later, the two mutually agreed to drop their suits against one another.
I was dropped from the case in exchange for a written promise not to sue him or his firm for malicious prosecution or abuse of process.
Chris Dolan was never worried about being found guilty of malicious prosecution. Lisa had ordered her attorneys to prepare the papers and sue Chris if Ken won the case. Like Lisa’s countersuit against Mary, it was an intimidation attempt that didn’t work. It was Chris who insisted on the waiver as part of the settlement in order to avoid a nuisance suit; Lisa’s attorneys, knowing they had no case against Chris, agreed. There’s plenty of evidence in Lisa’s own deposition to provide reasonable grounds for the charges of negligence. But it takes time and energy to defend yourself from even the most specious charges, and he didn’t want to be bothered.
Marion died in September 1999, and her insurance company, unable to defend the suit without her, settled out of court. In the course of these settlements the cross-complaints against Mary for her atrocious neglect of her child were also dropped. (I can only trust that God will deal with her.)
More lies. While it’s true that Marion died in September of 1999, the settlement had been negotiated several months earlier and the final ratification before the judge took place in August, 3-4 weeks before Marion died. Marion herself signed the papers. Marion and Lisa were both “dropped” from the case because their insurance company agreed to settle. They did not want to go into court and let an impartial judge and jury see Marion’s and Lisa’s (and other) testimony, or their loss would have been far greater.
As I mentioned, the counterclaim against Mary was dropped “with prejudice” because there was not a scrap of truth to those charges. The only mistake Mary made, which she regrets to this day, was in assuming that Walter, Marion and Elizabeth Waters were honest, decent human beings who would not harm a child or stand by knowingly while one was harmed. Mary has nothing to fear from God’s judgment. I’m not at all sure about Lisa Waters.
We will probably never know the whole truth.
That’s for sure. Lisa has spent considerable energy trying hard to hide the truth from everyone. Time and time again, as she testified, she was presented with evidence, and time and time again she refused to do anything about it.
After some of the things that came out during the discovery process, I’m not even certain that Walter did molest the child, even though he pled guilty in 1990 so that the child would not have to testify.
Lisa testified under oath that she did believe Walter molested Ken (whom she patronizingly calls “the child”; he does have a name, you know). She actually asked Walter about it and he as much as admitted it. She read Walter’s journal, which was part of his sentencing report; in it he talks about molesting Ken and says Mary didn’t know — he was afraid she’d find out. He also talked about how much control Lisa had over his life. Lisa said that he told her that Ken didn’t care and he wasn’t a virgin anyway. (It’s unfortunately true that Ken wasn’t a virgin at age 12, because Walter had been molesting him since Ken was 8.) But now she wants to take the side of a thrice-convicted child molester over a victim of a heinous crime. Time and again she says it’s the kids, the victims, who are liars. Only child molesters like Walter and Marion are telling the truth.
But whatever Walter may or may not have done, I’m certain that Marion did not know.
Marion testified under oath that she did know Walter preferred sex with children, and had known since the mid-60s. She also testified that she repeatedly lied to cover it up because she thought it was no one else’s business if Walter molested children. Lisa filed a suit against Marion, contending that Marion had known. Again, Lying Lisa can’t keep her stories straight.
As far as I can tell, Smith v. Breen and Smith v. Bradley were attempts to make money from a situation which presumably traumatized a child
No “presumably” about it. Ken was badly traumatized, is in serious need of therapy, and now has a chance (finally, after more than 10 years of needless pain caused by the estate’s stalling tactics) of getting some help. That’s what this was all about.
I think that people who use a child that way are despicable.
I presume she means me and Mary. How did we “use” a child, Lisa? Not one penny of the settlement has ever gone to us. Every cent has gone for Ken’s welfare. We don’t even hold it for him; that’s his lawyer’s job. Neither Mary nor I has ever filed a suit against Marion or Lisa; they sued Mary on frivolous grounds that the court has rightfully thrown out. If Lisa Waters were truly the “Christian” she pretends to be she would have some sympathy for the victims of the crimes.
Do you want to know what I think is despicable, Lisa? (You probably don’t, but I’ll tell you anyway.) It’s someone who has evidence that a man is hurting innocent children and does nothing to stop it. It’s a person who closes her eyes to evil because it’s a family member perpetrating it. Worst of all, it’s a person who can look at these poor victims of criminal abuse and add to their pain by calling all of them liars while trying to defend the true villains. It’s amazing how so many people, so many years apart and totally independent of one another, all came up with consistent stories. Meanwhile, Saint Lisa can’t even keep her own story straight from one hour to the next.
By the way, here are some other bits of horror that Lisa Waters swore to in her deposition:
- Lisa reported that Marion said if Walter ever did this again, she would divorce him. Marion was a professional writer. She knew what the word “again” meant — that it had happened previously. Marion had prior knowledge of past incidents of child abuse by Walter, and did nothing to stop him.
- Lisa saw a letter from Walter to his therapist in which Walter claimed that being around a certain teenage boy made him feel horny. This was years before Ken appeared on the scene, but Lisa did nothing about it.
- Lisa asked Walter about Ken, and Walter said Ken didn’t care, and anyway Ken wasn’t a virgin.
- Marion’s daughter Moira told Lisa that Walter had raped her when she was 5 years old. Lisa never bothered to find out the truth; she just assumed Moira was lying.
- Moira also told Lisa that her mother had groped her breasts in the shower when Moira was 9. When Lisa asked Marion about it, Marion never denied it, merely made some bizarre comment that girls that age didn’t have erogenous zones.
- Moira also told Lisa that Marion had tied her to a chair and threatened to pull out all her teeth with a pair of pliers. Marion admitted doing it as a way to punish Moira.
- Marion’s son Patrick told Lisa that Marion had molested him. Lisa did nothing to check into this.
I presume Lisa doesn’t think any of these things are despicable, because she ardently defends the people who did them.
Don’t just take my word for it. Lisa Waters’ deposition is available to be read in its entirety (including all the hesitations and lawyerly squabbles). If you don’t have the patience, I’ve taken the trouble to excerpt some of the most interesting sections.
Mary has asked me to say this on her behalf. If Lisa had merely said something like, “This was a tragic episode and we’re all glad it’s behind us,” that would have been the end of the matter. Because she chose to make libelous public statements, Steve and I feel we have no choice but to publish her own sworn testimony so that people can see for themselves the extent of her lies, and the extent of the depredation on the part of both Walter and Marion.
And as for myself, I feel Lisa Waters is a disgusting excuse for a human being, a woman who leeched off of Marion for decades and will take the most outrageous, pointless and petty actions to try to preserve the value of the Bradley estate so she can continue to leech off it even after Marion’s death.
Knowing how petty and spiteful Lisa Waters is, I wouldn’t be surprised if she tried to sue me. Be my guest, Lisa; I can back up everything I say. Just remember what happened to Oscar Wilde when he sued the Marquis of Queensbury.
Note: This page originally appeared at http://sff.net/people/stephen.goldin/mzb/reply.html, but that subsite is permanently offline. Stephen Goldin’s new site is here, but it does not contain the MZB tree (that I found). Apart from bringing the code up to HTML5, adjusting URLs to my own naming system, and fixing a couple of typos, what precedes the rule above this paragraph is entirely Stephen Goldin’s work.