Sounds Like Weird
This is a mirror of Stephen Goldin’s pages from SFF.net about Marion Zimmer Bradley. More notes after the deposition.
1 IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF ALAMEDA
3 —oOo—
4 KEN SMITH, )
)
5 Plaintiff, )
)
6 vs. ) No. 778220-2
)
7 MARION Z. BRADLEY, ELISABETH )
WATERS, and Does 1 through )
8 10 inclusive, )
)
9 Defendants. )
______________________________)
10
11
12
DEPOSITION OF
13
ELISABETH WATERS
14
15
Thursday, October 16, 1997
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25 REPORTED BY: KARLA SHALLENBERGER, CSR No. 10752
SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES – (415) 771-1988
1 I N D E X
2
3 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
4 MR. DOLAN 5
5
6 INDEX OF PLAINTIFF’S EXHIBITS
7 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
1 Deed of trust note 111
8
2 Quit claim deed 114
9
3 Rental agreement 115
10
4 Copy of interview 121
11 with J.Z. Eglinton
12 5 Employment agreement 140
13 6 11/15/89 letter from 141
Ms. Waters to Mr. Breen
14
7 Personal journal entries 198
15 of Ms. Waters 10/20/89
16 —o0o—
QUESTIONS MARKED FOR THE RECORD: PAGE LINE
17 67 14
85 12
18 92 6
124 17
19 125 8
126 4
20 126 15
127 7
21 129 8
132 9
22 146 25
147 16
23 151 23
202 4
24 220 24
25
1 DEPOSITION OF ELISABETH WATERS
2
3 BE IT REMEMBERED that pursuant to Notice of
4 Taking Deposition, and on Thursday, October 16, 1997,
5 commencing at the hour of 10:15 a.m. thereof, at the Law
6 Offices of CHRISTOPHER B. DOLAN before me, KARLA
7 SHALLENBERGER, a Certified Shorthand Reporter in the State
8 of California, there personally appeared
9 ELISABETH WATERS,
10 called as witness, who being by me first duly sworn, was
11 thereafter examined and testified as hereinafter set
12 forth.
13 —oOo—
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S
2 LAW OFFICES OF CHRISTOPHER B. DOLAN, 655
3 Montgomery Street, 16th Floor, San Francisco, CA 94111,
4 represented by CHRISTOPHER DOLAN, Attorney at Law,
5 appeared as counsel on behalf of Plaintiff.
6
7 BURESH, KAPLAN, JANG, FELLER & AUSTIN, 2298
8 Durant Avenue, Berkeley, CA 94704, represented by SCOTT
9 BURESH, Attorney at Law, appeared as counsel on behalf of
10 Defendant.
11
12 RAMSEY & DURRELL, 755 Sansome Street, Suite 350,
13 San Francisco, CA 94111, represented by JUSTINE DURRELL,
14 Attorney at Law, appeared as counsel on behalf of
15 Defendant.
16
17 ALSO PRESENT: Scott Bonagofsky
18
19
20
21 —oOo—
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25
1 EXAMINATION BY CHRISTOPHER DOLAN:
2 MR. DOLAN: Q. Would you please state your
3 full name for the record?
4 A. Elisabeth Waters.
5 Q. Do you have a middle name?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Have you ever been known by any other names?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Please tell me those other names.
10 A. My parents christened me Nancy Elisabeth
11 Waters.
12 Q. Other than being christened Nancy Elisabeth
13 Waters and the current name of Elisabeth Waters that you
14 use, have you used any other names?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you have a handle, as we have come to know
17 it, I don’t know what the proper name is, but a name
18 within the circles that either the Society for Creative
19 Anachronism or any other science fiction circles that
20 would give you a name other than Elisabeth Waters that
21 you’re recognized by?
22 A. No.
23 Q. No?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Have you ever had your deposition taken before?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you tell me when?
3 A. I believe it was in 1993.
4 Q. Was that in relationship to a property dispute
5 between Marion Zimmer Bradley and Patrick Breen?
6 A. Yes, it was.
7 Q. Do you have a copy of that deposition still in
8 your possession at your home?
9 A. I do not believe so, no.
10 Q. Have you ever been deposed on any occasions
11 other than that one?
12 A. No.
13 Q. I am going to go over with you the rules of a
14 deposition just so that we are clear on them even though
15 you may have had the opportunity to speak to one or more
16 of your attorneys on this matter, okay?
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Before I do that, do you have any legal
19 training whatsoever of an official nature; i.e., have you
20 ever attended any classes in any law schools?
21 A. No.
22 Q. A deposition is a question-and-answer period,
23 and although it’s being conducted in a somewhat informal
24 atmosphere here in my office, it is the same as if it were
25 being conducted in front of judge and jury in a court of
1 law, and it carries the same weight as trial court
2 testimony; do you understand that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You have sworn to tell the truth under the
5 penalty of perjury today, and I just want to make sure
6 that you understand that the penalty of perjury in
7 California includes both fines and incarceration if you
8 were found to be untruthful or dishonest during this
9 deposition; do you understand that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Everything that is said in this room will be
12 recorded into a booklet. The court reporter, at my left,
13 is typing everything now, and it will be transcribed into
14 a booklet of questions and answers that you will have an
15 opportunity to review at some point in the future.
16 Because everything is transcribed, everything that is said
17 in this room needs to be done audibly, and everything said
18 in this room will be recorded in that booklet; do you
19 understand that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Therefore, I would ask that you please give me
22 audible English language answers to my questions. Yes,
23 no, or any other string of words you may wish to put
24 together.
25 If you wish to have a private conversation with
1 anybody, do not do it in this room because it will not be
2 considered private if it is done in my presence or in
3 front of this court reporter. There is a room available
4 for you and your counsel if at any time you need to talk
5 to them; do you understand that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. One thing that we’re doing very well, and I
8 thank you for, is that we need to wait, one before the
9 other in terms of speaking. So if you would kindly wait
10 until I finish my questions before you begin your answers,
11 I will likewise try to do the same. Your attorney may
12 have advised you that it’s often good to pause momentarily
13 so if there’s another attorney who wishes to make an
14 objection, they may do so; do you understand that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I do not wish you to guess or speculate as to
17 anything in this deposition. I only want your best
18 testimony or your best recollection; however, I am
19 entitled to estimates or approximations and any basis of
20 information which you may have which is not a guess; do
21 you understand that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I’ll give you an example of the difference
24 between a guess and an estimate. I may be able to ask you
25 to estimate the length of the table in this particular
1 room, and you might be able to do that based upon your
2 personal observation and your experience. If I were to
3 ask you the length of the dining room table in my home,
4 you would be unable to do that because you have never been
5 there, so do you understand the difference?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. If you do not understand a question, I’ll ask
8 that you please ask me to rephrase the question, and I’ll
9 somehow help you to understand the question. Otherwise,
10 if I get an answer to a question, I will assume that you
11 have understood the question as it was asked to you; do
12 you understand that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If at any time today you need to take a break
15 for any reason, to use the facilities, to get a beverage
16 or to speak with your attorneys, you are free to do so.
17 However, I must ask that you please do not
18 interrupt a question pending to break to talk to your
19 attorneys or to do something. I would request that I
20 please get an answer before we take that break. I cannot
21 force you to do so; however, I need to let you know that
22 if you do break during a question and answer pending, I
23 may draw an inference as to what happened in that time
24 period between the question and the answer and present
25 that to some jury at trial; do you understand that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You will have an opportunity to review your
3 deposition and to make any changes that you think are
4 necessary or appropriate once it’s completed. You will
5 receive the booklet, and you can review it and make
6 changes.
7 However, I would ask for your best testimony
8 today because if you make any changes to your deposition,
9 I can comment, or any lawyer can comment on that at trial
10 and ask the jury to draw an inference therefrom that
11 there’s a reason why you have gone back and changed your
12 testimony, and it may affect your credibility.
13 So I would ask that you give me your best
14 testimony today, and if you have any changes in the
15 testimony that you think up later on during the day,
16 please let us know while we’re still on the record because
17 that will minimize any type of impact that a change in
18 your testimony might have later on; do you understand
19 that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. Are you under the influence of any
22 medications today which would impair your ability to
23 recall events as they occurred in 1979 through to the
24 present day?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Are you suffering from any organic or physical
2 defects of your brain or body which would impede your
3 ability to remember events that occurred in the time
4 period 1979 through the present day?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you know of any reason why your deposition
7 cannot go forward today?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Are you suffering from any serious emotional
10 difficulties, related to anything at this point, which
11 would impede your ability to give your best testimony
12 today?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Please tell me where you were born.
15 A. Providence, Rhode Island.
16 Q. How long did you live there?
17 A. About a year and a half, I believe.
18 Q. How many children in your family?
19 A. Three.
20 Q. Where do you fall in that framework?
21 A. I’m the eldest.
22 Q. What were the names of your brothers and
23 sisters?
24 A. My sisters are Ellen and Julie.
25 Q. What are their last names please?
1 A. Ellen is still Ellen Waters, and Julie is Mrs.
2 Larry Robinson.
3 Q. Where do they live currently?
4 A. Ellen lives is New Canaan —
5 Q. Connecticut?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. It is a small world.
8 A. Yes, I know.
9 Q. And?
10 A. And Julie lives in Raleigh, North Carolina.
11 Q. Where in New Canaan does Ellen live?
12 A. Frogtown Road.
13 MS. DURRELL: Excuse me just a minute.
14 Elisabeth, can you speak up a little bit because I’m
15 really having a hard time hearing you. Thanks.
16 MR. DOLAN: Q. And what does Ellen do in New
17 Canaan?
18 A. She’s a teacher at King-Low-Heywood-Thomas
19 School.
20 Q. You probably know this by now seeing how
21 thorough you were on some of the things I saw in your
22 documents on astrology related to other lawyers and
23 things. I’m from New Canaan, Connecticut and lived my
24 whole life there, and I’m actually somewhat of an oddity
25 that I’m the fourth generation of five who lived there.
1 We were poor Irish potato farmers that came over, and I’m
2 intimately familiar with the Frogtown Road. What is the
3 address of Julie in Raleigh, North Carolina, please?
4 A. I don’t remember the exact street address.
5 Q. Do you have the name of the street?
6 A. I think it’s Van Dyke Avenue, but I’m not
7 positive.
8 Q. Where did you move after Providence, Rhode
9 Island?
10 A. I don’t remember. I was a baby. I believe it
11 was Staten Island.
12 Q. And how long were you there?
13 A. I think about maybe six months.
14 Q. Where did your family move to next?
15 A. 54 Halsey Drive, Old Greenwich, Connecticut.
16 Q. And how long did your family live there?
17 A. Until the fall of 1968.
18 Q. And where did they move after that?
19 A. 379 Cascade Road, Stamford, Connecticut.
20 Q. North Stamford, Connecticut?
21 A. Yes, right along the line.
22 Q. Between Ponus Ridge, going over the High Ridge
23 Road?
24 A. Uh-hum.
25 Q. How long did you live there?
1 A. They’re still living there.
2 Q. Okay. How long did you live there?
3 A. Well, first I was in boarding school for three
4 years. Then I was in college for four. Then I went back
5 and lived with them — let’s see, I went to Katie Gibbs in
6 Norwalk the summer after I graduated from college, which
7 would have been the summer of ’75, and then I went to
8 graduate school at the University of New Haven, so I lived
9 with them during that, so I lived with them until August
10 24th, 1979, when I moved to Berkeley.
11 Q. Okay. Did you receive any degree from graduate
12 school at the University of New Haven?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what was that in, please?
15 A. Computers and information science.
16 Q. Was that a Masters or Bachelors?
17 A. Master of Science.
18 Q. My parents met at Katie Gibbs. My father was a
19 recently graduated attorney and was taking typing, and my
20 mother was also, and they met in the typing class at Katie
21 Gibbs?
22 A. New York or Norwalk?
23 Q. Norwalk, it may have been New York. Who
24 knows.
25 Okay. What boarding school did you go to?
1 A. St. Anne’s.
2 Q. Where is that located?
3 A. Charlottesville, Virginia.
4 Q. What college?
5 A. Randolph Macon College.
6 Q. That’s in Virginia, isn’t it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was it still a women’s college then?
9 A. You’re confusing the two.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Randolph Macon Women’s College is in Lynchburg.
12 The one I attended is Randolph Macon College, which is in
13 Ashland.
14 Q. In 1979 you moved to Berkeley; is that correct?
15 A. Actually, Oakland.
16 Q. Where was your first residence in Oakland,
17 please?
18 A. 6617 Telegraph Avenue, Apartment 3.
19 Q. And who lived there with you, please?
20 A. Marion moved into my spare room when she came
21 back from England.
22 Q. Anyone else ever live there with you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. How long did you live at 6617 Telegraph Avenue?
25 A. About two years.
1 Q. Did either of Marion’s children ever stay with
2 you at that address?
3 A. I believe Moira did once or twice when Marion
4 was away at convention.
5 Q. When Marion was actually in residence at 6617
6 Telegraph Avenue, Apartment No. 3, did either Patrick or
7 Moira Breen ever stay in the apartment with you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Who was taking care of the children when you
10 were living at 6617 Telegraph Avenue, if you know?
11 A. In the daytime Marion and I would go over to
12 the house. It’s a few blocks away from the house on
13 Prince Street, and Marion was the daytime parent, and then
14 at night Walter was there with the children because Walter
15 was nocturnal. He would sit up all night writing.
16 Q. So this would be roughly the ’79 to ’81 time
17 period?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you have any permanent house guests at the
20 6617 Telegraph Avenue, Apartment 3 address? And what I
21 mean by “permanent” is anyone who stayed there for more
22 than three nights during that time period.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you have any frequent guests? And what I
25 mean by “frequent” is guests who came over on a regular
1 basis, i.e., like once a week.
2 A. No, it was a two-bedroom apartment. I had one
3 bedroom. Marion had the other.
4 MR. BURESH: Your “no” answer was sufficient.
5 You don’t have to explain your answer.
6 MR. DOLAN: Q. Was there an office in that
7 apartment?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you and Marion Zimmer Bradley ever share a
10 bedroom in that apartment?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you and Marion Zimmer Bradley ever share
13 the same bed in that apartment?
14 MR. BURESH: I’m going to object to the
15 question, and all questions along this line, as an
16 invasion of the witness’s privacy and also because it’s
17 not reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of
18 admissible evidence.
19 Subject to that objection, I am going to allow
20 the witness to answer to the extent that she feels
21 comfortable, and so I’m going to allow the witness to go
22 ahead to that extent.
23 MR. DOLAN: Q. I’m not asking if you ever had
24 sexual relations with her. I’m just asking whether you
25 ever shared the same bed.
1 MR. BURESH: Well, that’s a matter of
2 characterization.
3 THE WITNESS: No, I don’t think we did.
4 MR. DOLAN: Q. Have you ever shared the same
5 bed with Marion Zimmer Bradley?
6 MR. BURESH: Can we have a stipulation that I
7 have continuing objection to this line of questions
8 subject to what I just got through saying.
9 MR. DOLAN: Certainly. I’m not necessarily
10 agreeing to your objection, but I understand you don’t
11 have to say it every time.
12 MR. BURESH: Thank you. Give me the question
13 back, please.
14 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you and Marion Zimmer
15 Bradley ever share the same bed?
16 MR. BURESH: I’ll also object on the basis that
17 it’s vague and ambiguous.
18 MS. DURRELL: Overbroad.
19 THE WITNESS: I think we may have some times.
20 It was a long time ago, and I don’t remember very well.
21 MR. DOLAN: Q. Have you and Marion Zimmer
22 Bradley ever been romantically involved?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. From what time period?
25 A. 1978 to about 1985, I think.
1 Q. Where did you live after living at the
2 Telegraph Avenue address, please?
3 A. 2221 Prince Street.
4 Q. Is that where you currently reside?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you recall when you moved into 2221 Prince
7 Street?
8 A. It was when Moira was 15, so that would have
9 made it 1981.
10 Q. When you moved into Prince Street in 1981 —
11 strike that.
12 Have you ever lived at any other addresses on
13 Prince Street?
14 A. No.
15 Q. So when I refer to Prince Street, you’ll know
16 that I’m talking about 2221 Prince Street?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When you moved into Prince Street, who was
19 living in the dwelling at that time?
20 A. Marion and I and Moira and Patrick.
21 Q. Do you know where Walter was living?
22 A. Yes, he moved to our apartment.
23 Q. Have you ever lived in any addresses since —
24 strike that.
25 Have you ever lived in any addresses other than
1 Prince Street since 1981?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Are you familiar with a home called the
4 “goldfish bowl”, referenced as the goldfish bowl?
5 A. Are you referring to 3031 Fulton Street?
6 Q. I believe that’s what I’m referring to, yes.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know that to be commonly known as the
9 goldfish bowl?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Have you ever lived there?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Is there another one that’s 2024 Fulton Street
14 that was owned by Marion at one point?
15 A. That was 3024 Fulton Street that was owned by
16 Marion and Patrick.
17 Q. Did you ever live there?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Is it your testimony that since 1981 you have
20 always resided at the Prince Street address except for
21 trips to conventions and business or family and whatever?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Could you please list any parties who live at
24 the Prince Street address while you resided there other
25 than yourself, Marion, and Patrick?
1 A. Well, Moira was living there when we first
2 moved there.
3 Q. Okay.
4 MR. BURESH: That’s no constraint as to time on
5 this; this is the entire time she has lived there, all the
6 people who have lived in the house throughout the entire
7 time she lived there?
8 MR. DOLAN: Let’s take this here. We’ll break
9 it down. I got a feeling.
10 Q. Let’s take from ’81 to ’85.
11 A. All right. In 1981 it was Marion and me and
12 Patrick and Moira. In 1982, Moira moved out to live with
13 some friends, and a fosterling called Cynthia Becket moved
14 in. She lived with us until I think early ’84, and she
15 got married in 1984. Then there was another fosterling
16 Kathryn Krischild. I’m sorry, what time period were we?
17 Q. ’81 to ’85.
18 A. Elizabeth Rousseau may have moved in during
19 that time period. Generally, a lot of the kids’ friends
20 would come and stay with us for various periods of time.
21 Q. Any others that you can recall from ’81 to ’85?
22 A. Let’s see, there was a child named Barry Austin
23 who was there briefly. He was a runaway and Social
24 Services temporarily placed him with us, but that didn’t
25 work out, and we had to ask Social Services to take him
1 back.
2 Q. Any others during that time period?
3 A. Not to the best of my recollection.
4 Q. Do you recall anybody named [other name] ever living
5 there?
6 A. I remember a boy named [other name]. I think he was
7 one of Moira’s boyfriends. [other name] and Nick and Patrick and
8 Moira hung around together when — about the time when
9 Moira was 15 and Patrick was 16, but he didn’t live
10 there. He lived in San Francisco with his mother.
11 Q. Do you know if [other name] ever spent the night there?
12 A. At Prince Street? Not to the best of my
13 knowledge, no.
14 Q. Anyone else during the ’81 to ’85 time period
15 that lived in the home?
16 A. Not that I recall off the top of my head.
17 Q. Does [ful name of Name A] have another name she was
18 known by?
19 A. She was later [Name A].
20 Q. How old was [Name A] when she lived at
21 the Prince Street address, if you know?
22 A. 18, 19 and 20.
23 Q. Do you know her birth date?
24 A. October 5th, 1963.
25 Q. How old was Kathryn Krischild when she lived
1 there; do you know?
2 A. I think she was a couple of years older than
3 the rest of the kids. [Name A] was a year older than
4 Patrick, and I think Kat was a couple years older than
5 that.
6 Q. Do you know where Kat lives now?
7 A. Shattuck Avenue, Berkeley.
8 Q. Do you know where on Shattuck?
9 A. I think it’s 3024.
10 Q. Do you know her phone number?
11 A. Not off the top of my head.
12 Q. Do you know where [Name A] lives now?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know if she’s known by any other names?
15 A. She married [Mr. X], so she might be
16 known as [Mrs. X[.
17 Q. Do you know if she was ever known as [Nickname]?
18 A. Not to my knowledge. Certainly not during the
19 time I knew her.
20 Q. Do you know if Miss Krischild is known by any
21 other names?
22 A. I don’t believe I have ever heard any other
23 names for her.
24 MR. DOLAN: Do you mind if we break for a
25 minute?
1 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.)
2 MR. DOLAN: Q. Do you know if Miss Krischild
3 is known by any other names?
4 A. I thought I just answered that, no.
5 Q. You may have.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you know where Lisa Rousseau lives?
8 A. Somewhere in San Francisco. I don’t know the
9 exact address.
10 Q. Do you know what street?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you know who she lives with, if anyone?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know if she is known by any other names
15 currently?
16 A. Not to the best of my knowledge.
17 Q. Do you know if she’s married?
18 A. I believe she is not.
19 Q. Do you know where Barry Austin lives?
20 A. No.
21 Q. How old was Barry Austin when he lived at the
22 house?
23 A. 12.
24 Q. How long did he live there?
25 A. A couple of months, I believe.
1 Q. How old was [other name] Worth during the time period
2 ’84 to ’85?
3 A. Who?
4 Q. Is that his last name, [other name] Worth, do you know?
5 A. I don’t know anyone by that name.
6 Q. Do you know what [other name]’s last name was?
7 A. You mean the [other name] that hung out with Moira and
8 Patrick?
9 MR. BURESH: The witness has testified that he
10 didn’t live there.
11 MR. DOLAN: Okay. Well, he was there in and
12 out.
13 Q. How old was [other name]–
14 MS. DURRELL: I’m going to object, that
15 misstates the witness’s testimony.
16 MR. BURESH: Why don’t you just say what you
17 said before about [other name]’s presence at the house.
18 THE WITNESS: Maybe he was there three or four
19 times. I didn’t see much of him.
20 MR. DOLAN: Q. Okay. Do you have any idea how
21 old he was?
22 A. I believe he was 15. As I said, I thought he
23 was Moira’s boyfriend, and she was 15.
24 Q. Were you ever advised by Moira that [other name] was
25 found in Walter’s bed?
1 A. No.
2 Q. At any time prior to today, has Moira ever told
3 you that [other name] was in Walter’s bed?
4 A. Not to the best of my recollection.
5 Q. Did you ever live at Prince Street before
6 moving to Telegraph Avenue for any period of time?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you ever visit there?
9 A. While I was —
10 Q. Prince Street?
11 A. Oh, you mean before I moved out there?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you ever heard of a man by the name of
15 [Victim X]?
16 A. I think I have heard the name. I have never
17 met him.
18 Q. How have you heard the name [Victim X]?
19 A. If he’s the one I’m thinking of, he was
20 somebody that Walter was accused of molesting back in the
21 early ’60s or something. I don’t really know much of
22 anything about it.
23 Q. When did you first hear that Walter had been
24 accused of molesting [Victim X] in the early ’60s?
25 A. I think it was sometime in the ’80s. It was
1 some sort of science fiction fan feud that Marion told me
2 had happened back around the time she and Walter were
3 married.
4 Q. Did Marion ever tell you that Walter had had a
5 sexual relationship with [Victim X] before they were
6 married?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you ever hear Marion make such a statement
9 to anyone that Walter had had a sexual relationship with
10 [Victim X] before they were married?
11 A. When we told her about Kenny, she said that she
12 thought he might. I don’t remember her exact words, but
13 she seemed to think there was a possibility then that he
14 had molested [Victim X], but that wasn’t until October of 1989.
15 Q. So in October of ’89 when you told her that she
16 may have molested Ken —
17 A. That Walter may have molested Ken.
18 Q. Strike that. I’m out of it from this car
19 thing. I’ll start over again.
20 In October of 1989 when you told Marion that
21 Walter may have molested Kenny, she told you that she
22 thought there was a possibility that Walter may have also
23 molested [Victim X]?
24 A. When we told her that Walter had molested Kenny
25 — by then we were pretty sure — she seemed to think
1 that if Walter was capable of molesting Kenny then perhaps
2 he had also molested [Victim X].
3 MR. BURESH: [Name 1]or [Name 2]? We’ve got two names
4 here. I know they’re in the police report.
5 THE WITNESS: Possibly both of them.
6 MR. BURESH: Are you confusing [Name 1]with [Name 2]
7 in your answers?
8 THE WITNESS: No.
9 MR. BURESH: Okay.
10 THE WITNESS: [Name 1]I knew. [Name 2] I didn’t.
11 MR. BURESH: Okay.
12 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did she ever tell you that
13 Walter may have possibly molested [Victim X]?
14 A. Didn’t I answer that?
15 Q. I’m trying to —
16 MR. BURESH: We talked about [Victim X] and
17 now we’re talking about [Name 2]. Why don’t we get
18 the names straight?
19 THE WITNESS: I thought we were talking about
20 [Name 2].
21 MR. DOLAN: Q. Who is [Name 2]?
22 A. [Name 2]is the kid in the Breen boondoggle, which
23 was a big fannish scandal back when I was in grade school
24 in Connecticut.
25 Q. Okay. And [Name 1] is the boy who was referenced
1 as possibly being the boyfriend of Moira’s, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 MS. DURRELL: Is that — excuse me, is that
4 [Victim X]?
5 MR. DOLAN: No, I think I have that wrong.
6 It’s [other name].
7 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think his last name is
8 [other name] or something like that.
9 MR. DOLAN: I think I got the two mixed up
10 because they both begin with G. I’ll try to be more
11 careful.
12 MS. DURRELL: Let me ask then, this testimony
13 that’s been going on about [Victim X], is that a
14 separate [first name] from [other name]?
15 MR. DOLAN: It’s [Victim X] and [other name].
16 THE WITNESS: We have been — at least I have
17 been talking about [Victim X].
18 MR. DOLAN: Q. Right, okay. Let me start over
19 again.
20 A. Okay.
21 MS. DURRELL: Maybe you should take few days
22 off before you continue.
23 MR. DOLAN: I have been told that.
24 Let’s sort of clean this up here.
25 Q. [Victim X], when did you first hear
1 about him?
2 A. I think it was sometime in the 1980’s.
3 Q. Okay. Do you know approximately when?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Was it before Kenny Smith was reported as being
6 molested?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How long before Kenny Smith had been reported
9 as being molested had you heard about [Victim X]?
10 A. I don’t know.
11 Q. Can you give me an estimate or approximation?
12 A. Five years plus or minus three.
13 Q. How did you hear about [Victim X] in that
14 time period that you just referenced?
15 A. Somebody referred to some old fannish scandal.
16 It was a fan feud. Apparently Walter and some other fan
17 were in competition for some fannish award, and the fan
18 accused him of molesting [Victim X], and there was a police
19 investigation, and the police apparently cleared Walter,
20 and there was — I gather people argued about whether
21 Walter should be something called FAPA, which I believes
22 stands for Fantasy Amateur Press Association. And it’s a
23 sort of round-robin news letter, although why anybody
24 would want to be in it is a mystery to me, but apparently
25 it was a big thing to Walter and Marion.
1 Q. Okay. Do you know if Walter was ever banished
2 from WorldCon as a result of this?
3 A. As a result of what?
4 Q. The episode with — the accusation regarding
5 [Victim X]?
6 A. Not that I ever heard.
7 Q. Do you have any information of whether Walter
8 Breen was excluded from the 1964 WorldCon?
9 A. I have no knowledge of that.
10 Q. Were you aware of the fracas that was happening
11 regarding this issue at any time when you yourself were a
12 younger child before you became involved with the Zimmer
13 Bradley Enterprises?
14 A. Are you asking if I knew about that before I
15 met Marion?
16 Q. Correct.
17 A. No, I did not.
18 Q. Did you know if Walter was ever blackballed
19 from the FAPA waiting list?
20 A. I believe he was. I think that was a —
21 MR. BURESH: The question was whether you know,
22 not what you believe. We are venturing into speculation
23 here. The question is whether you know.
24 MR. DOLAN: Q. Do you have any reason to
25 believe that Walter was ever blackballed from the FAPA
1 waiting list?
2 A. I don’t think so, no.
3 Q. Did anyone ever tell you that Walter was
4 excluded from FAPA?
5 A. I got the impression from what Marion said
6 about it that he was for a time or that there was some big
7 debate as to whether or not he should be admitted.
8 Q. Who was it in the 1980’s that brought this
9 issue regarding [Victim X] to your attention?
10 A. I don’t remember. I think it may have been
11 Marion.
12 Q. Can you tell me everything you can recall
13 regarding the discussion that concerned [Victim X] at
14 that time in the 1980’s?
15 A. I think we were discussing science fiction
16 FANDOM feuds and how silly they were. That’s really all I
17 remember.
18 Q. What do you remember about the discussions
19 specifically concerning Walter’s conduct, if any, with
20 [Victim X]?
21 MR. BURESH: Other than what she has already
22 testified to?
23 MR. DOLAN: Right.
24 THE WITNESS: Other than what I have already
25 testified to, nothing.
1 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did Marion ever give you any
2 opinion of her own at that time as to whether or not she
3 thought the charges had any basis to it?
4 A. At that time, no.
5 Q. At a later time, did she?
6 A. I have already mentioned the conversation in
7 October of 1989.
8 Q. Can you tell me with specificity what happened
9 in that conversation in 1989 regarding [Victim X]?
10 A. Raul and I picked her up at the airport, and
11 while she was gone we had found out that Walter really had
12 molested Kenny, so on the way home from the airport we
13 told her, and she was very upset, and she said that if
14 Walter was capable of that, then maybe he molested [Victim X]
15 and [other name] as well.
16 Q. Anything else that she said about that?
17 A. That she was going to divorce him.
18 Q. Anything else?
19 A. I think that’s about it.
20 Q. Did she give you any indication of whether she
21 had ever told Walter that if he did this again she was
22 going to divorce him?
23 A. She said something about, she had always said
24 that if he did this again, she would divorce him, but I’m
25 not sure whether she was talking to him or to herself.
1 Q. You heard her say the words, though, “If he did
2 this again, I was going to divorce him”?
3 MR. BURESH: The exact words, or words to that
4 effect? I don’t know what your question is.
5 MR. DOLAN: The best I can get.
6 Q. What was your best recollection regarding what
7 she said in that regard?
8 A. My best recollection is that she said,” I
9 always said if he did this again I would divorce him.”
10 Q. Had you ever heard her say that before?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Have you ever heard her say that after that
13 time that she was riding in the car on the way home?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Approximately what date is this date that you
16 picked her up at the airport?
17 A. I believe it was October 9th, 1989.
18 Q. When she was using the word “again,” did you
19 ask her what do you mean by “again”?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you have any understanding as to what she
22 meant by the word “again”?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you undertake any inquiry of any type
25 whatsoever to find out what Marion meant by the words, “if
1 he did this again”?
2 A. No, I did not.
3 Q. Since that time have you ever come to
4 understand what Marion meant when she said, “If he did
5 this again, I would divorce him”?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And you have never asked Marion what she meant
8 by that, have you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Have you ever discussed it with Raul, that
11 particular phraseology of what Marion said?
12 A. Not to the best of my recollection.
13 Q. Have you ever discussed it with anyone else?
14 MR. BURESH: Besides her attorney?
15 THE WITNESS: My attorney.
16 MR. DOLAN: Okay. I won’t call that a waiver.
17 Q. Going back to this thing that has come to be
18 known as “the boondoggle”, have you ever heard it called
19 that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When I use the word the ” boondoggle”, I’m
22 talking about this episode that occurred at some point in
23 FANDOM regarding Walter’s alleged acts of molestation of
24 children; do you understand that?
25 A. Walter’s alleged acts of molestation with
1 [Victim X]. I never heard that there were any other children
2 involved.
3 Q. Okay. Do you know if there are any documents
4 that concern this alleged act of molestation with [Victim X]
5 from the boondoggle?
6 A. None that I know of.
7 Q. Do you know if the WorldCon has a governing
8 body there, an organization that runs it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what is the name of that organization?
11 A. I believe it’s called The World Science Fiction
12 Society.
13 Q. Where is The World Science Fiction Society
14 located?
15 A. I don’t know.
16 Q. Did you ever send in registrations for
17 WorldCon?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where did you send them to?
20 A. To whatever convention committee is running the
21 WorldCon that year.
22 Q. Do you know if they’re a business or a
23 corporation, The World Science Fiction Society?
24 A. I don’t know. I have never really paid all
25 that much attention to the business end of how it’s run.
1 Q. Do you know who the current president of that
2 society is?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Has Marion ever been the president of that
5 society?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you know where the current committee is
8 located for the next WorldCon?
9 A. I believe the next WorldCon is in Baltimore.
10 Q. Do you know how I could find out who the
11 parties are associated with the WorldCon organizing
12 committee for Baltimore?
13 A. I believe they have a Web page.
14 Q. Do you have any other ideas of how I could
15 locate them besides a Web page?
16 A. Locus Magazine, that’s L-o-c-u-s. They have
17 convention lists, and you just look through the listing
18 for them.
19 Q. Where is Locus Magazine out of?
20 A. It’s published out of Oakland.
21 Q. Do you know if they have a publishing office or
22 editorial office there in Oakland?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You indicated that the police investigated
25 Walter for this issue regarding [Victim X] and cleared
1 him; do you know what police you were talking about?
2 A. No. Marion just said that they had. I don’t
3 know it of my own knowledge.
4 Q. Do you have any understanding as you sit here
5 today which police department that may have been?
6 MR. BURESH: Are you asking her to speculate?
7 MR. DOLAN: No, I asked for her understanding.
8 MR. BURESH: As to what it may have been? I’ll
9 object. Calls for speculation.
10 MR. DOLAN: Q. Do you have any understanding as
11 to what police department investigated Walter at that
12 time?
13 MR. BURESH: Asked and answered. I mean, if
14 you got any. I mean, do you know where it happened?
15 THE WITNESS: No, I don’t know.
16 MR. DOLAN: Q. Okay. Is there anyone that you
17 know who I could speak to who would have better
18 information than you on this issue of the boondoggle?
19 A. I think most of the people who were involved in
20 it are dead by now. So, no, I’m afraid I don’t.
21 Q. Would Marion have more information on the
22 boondoggle than you?
23 A. In her present condition, I’m afraid not.
24 Q. Were any of the other members of Greyhaven
25 involved with the science fiction community back at the
1 time of the boondoggle?
2 A. I don’t know.
3 Q. Have you ever discussed the boondoggle with
4 anyone other than Marion?
5 A. Not that I recall.
6 Q. Do you know if Walter has been investigated by
7 any other police other than the Oakland police, the L.A.
8 police, and whatever police may have investigated him in
9 the [Victim X] issue?
10 A. I don’t know that Walter was ever investigated
11 by the Oakland police.
12 Q. The Berkeley police, excuse me.
13 A. There was that thing in Atlantic City that came
14 up in the stuff you sent us, but other than that, I don’t
15 know.
16 Q. When did you first learn about Walter’s arrest
17 for the lewd and lascivious behavior in Atlantic city?
18 A. When you sent us the information.
19 Q. Did you ever discuss that with Marion?
20 A. Not to the best of my recollection.
21 Q. Did you ever hear Marion talk about Walter’s
22 arrest in Atlantic City?
23 A. Wasn’t that in 1954?
24 Q. I am just asking in —
25 MR. BURESH: Well, regardless of when it was,
1 he’s asking —
2 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever hear Marion talk
3 about it?
4 MR. BURESH: Also I’m presuming all of these
5 questions are directed to conversations that were outside
6 the presence of counsel.
7 MR. DOLAN: Yes.
8 THE WITNESS: No, I never heard Marion discuss
9 it. And since it would have been about 10 years before
10 she met him, there is no reason she would have known about
11 it.
12 MR. DOLAN: I move to strike.
13 Q. The question was just, have you ever heard her
14 discuss it?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Are you aware if Walter Breen has ever been
17 investigated by any police agencies other than the ones
18 that we have identified as the Atlantic City police, the
19 ones who investigated the [Victim X] issue, the
20 Berkeley police, and the Los Angeles police?
21 A. To the best of my knowledge, that’s all.
22 Q. Do you know if Walter has ever been
23 investigated to your knowledge by any child protective
24 services?
25 A. Well, when we got Barry as a foster child,
1 there was the investigation, I think, that was run by
2 Child Protective Services because we were certified as a
3 foster home for this child.
4 Q. Were you involved in that process at all of the
5 investigation?
6 A. I think they asked me a few questions.
7 Q. Did they ask you any questions about Walter
8 Breen and his sexual activity?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did they ask anything about child molestation
11 in any way?
12 A. No.
13 Q. At the time that they investigated you, did you
14 have any knowledge as to whether or not Walter Breen had
15 any particular beliefs regarding the age of consent for
16 sexuality?
17 MR. BURESH: I’ll object to the form of the
18 question. You said, “At the time they investigated you.”
19 I don’t know if you mean this particular witness or who
20 you are talking about.
21 MR. DOLAN: I will rephrase it.
22 Q. At the time the Child Protective Services
23 investigated the suitability of the family for placement
24 of a child, did you have any understanding as to Walter
25 Breen’s idealogy regarding the age of consent as it
1 concerned children?
2 MR. BURESH: Age of consent for sexual
3 conduct?
4 MR. DOLAN: Yes.
5 MS. DURRELL: Do you understand the question?
6 THE WITNESS: I don’t think so.
7 MR. DOLAN: Q. At the time that you were —
8 that your family unit was being, shall we say,
9 “investigated,” for lack of a better word, for
10 suitability of placement of a foster child — do you
11 understand when I’m saying that part?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. During that time when this was going on and you
14 were talking to the Child Protective Services people who
15 were doing that investigation — we are focusing on that
16 time period, okay?
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. At that point did you know Walter Breen had
19 written the book Greek Love?
20 A. No.
21 Q. At that point did you have any understanding as
22 to whether Walter Breen thought that the “pedophilic
23 tradition of education,” as it’s been referred to in his
24 writings, was appropriate?
25 A. I have never seen any writings of Walter which
1 refer to the pedophilic tradition of education, and I
2 don’t know what that term means.
3 Q. At that time did you have any understanding as
4 to how Walter felt regarding sex between men and boys?
5 A. I do not believe so, no.
6 Q. At that point were you aware that Walter had
7 written any works whatsoever on the subject of sex between
8 men and boys?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Had you ever discussed that topic with Walter
11 Breen at any time prior to the placement of Barry with the
12 family?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Had you ever discussed that topic with Marion
15 at any time prior to the placement of Barry with the
16 family?
17 A. No.
18 Q. To your knowledge did Marion Zimmer Bradley
19 ever alert the Child Protective Services that Walter Breen
20 had written the book Greek Love?
21 A. I don’t know.
22 Q. To your knowledge —
23 A. Oh, to my knowledge, no, she didn’t.
24 Q. Were you present when they discussed the
25 placement of Barry with the family, Marion and CPS?
1 MR. BURESH: When you say “they discussed.”
2 MR. DOLAN: I said” Marion and CPS”. I just
3 clarified that.
4 MR. BURESH: I’m sorry.
5 THE WITNESS: No, no.
6 MR. DOLAN: Q. Were you present when — did
7 CPS discuss it with Walter, the placement of that child
8 with the family; do you know?
9 A. I don’t know. I would imagine they must have,
10 but I don’t know.
11 Q. Who was present when you discussed the
12 placement of this child with the family?
13 MR. BURESH: With Child Protective Services?
14 MR. DOLAN: Yes.
15 THE WITNESS: I’m not even sure, now that I
16 think of it, that it was an oral discussion. I think they
17 may have just had us fill out questionnaires.
18 MR. DOLAN: Q. Do you know if you still have
19 copies of those questionnaires?
20 A. No, we don’t. I don’t know if we ever did.
21 Q. Do you know what agency placed this child?
22 A. I wouldn’t know the proper name, but the kid
23 was from San Francisco, so it would have been whatever
24 agency had jurisdiction over runaway kids in San
25 Francisco.
1 Q. Do you have any records whatsoever in the home
2 that you’re aware of there on Prince Street that relate to
3 the placement of this child with the family?
4 A. No, we do not.
5 Q. Do you know if it was a public or private
6 agency that placed the child within the home?
7 A. I believe it was public.
8 Q. Do you know if anybody within the family
9 alerted the agency that placed this child in the home that
10 Walter Breen had written the book Greek Love?
11 A. No, I don’t know. That was the question,
12 wasn’t it, did I know?
13 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether Marion
14 Zimmer Bradley was aware that Walter Breen had written the
15 book Greek Love prior to the placement of this child
16 within the family?
17 MR. BURESH: Let me hear the question back
18 again, please.
19 MR. DOLAN: Q. Do you have any knowledge as to
20 whether Marion Zimmer Bradley was aware that Walter Breen
21 had written the book Greek Love prior to the placement of
22 this child in the family.
23 MR. BURESH: I’m not sure what the time frame
24 refers to, whether it refers to when she knew or when
25 Marion knew or —
1 MR. DOLAN: I’m just asking if she has any
2 knowledge as she sits here today as to whether or not
3 Marion was aware prior to the placement of this child
4 within that family that Walter had written the book Greek
5 Love.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 MR. DOLAN: Q. Can you explain that answer for
8 me?
9 A. Yes, I believe she did know that he had written
10 the book Greek Love.
11 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not
12 the boondoggle had occurred before or after this child was
13 placed within the family?
14 A. It was before.
15 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether Marion
16 Zimmer Bradley alerted the CPS workers that Walter had
17 been accused of molesting [Victim X] prior to this
18 child being placed within the family?
19 A. I do not have knowledge of that.
20 Q. Do you know if anybody within the family unit
21 notified CPS that Walter had been accused of molesting
22 [Victim X] prior to the placement of this child, Barry,
23 within the family unit?
24 A. I have no knowledge of that.
25 Q. Prior to the placement of this child, Barry,
1 within the family unit, and this is sometime you said in
2 the 1981 to ’85 time frame; is that correct?
3 A. I believe it was in 1981.
4 Q. Okay. Prior to 1981, did you have any
5 understanding as to Walter Breen’s opinions on the issue
6 of sex between men and boys?
7 A. No, not really.
8 Q. Not really? Did you have any idea whatsoever
9 what his beliefs were on that subject?
10 A. I don’t know, at some point I knew that he had
11 written a book about man-boy love throughout history, but
12 I didn’t have any idea whether that reflected on his
13 actual current opinions.
14 Q. Okay. Had you ever discussed the topic of
15 Walter and young boys with Marion Zimmer Bradley prior to
16 the placement of Barry within the home in 1981?
17 A. Yes, in 19 — I think it was 1980, I saw a
18 letter that Walter had written to his therapist, Dr.
19 Morin, and he said that he missed Sterling — who was
20 another one of the kids who hung around. He was a friend
21 of Patrick’s — not just because he was horny but because
22 — I forget the rest, but that phrase struck me as so odd
23 that I went and asked Marion about it.
24 Q. And Marion said that Walter had been completely
25 impotent since Moira was two, so I thought that Walter was
1 just bragging to his therapist, you know, the way teenage
2 boys brag to their friends about having scored with their
3 girlfriends when they haven’t, because Walter was about
4 that immature.
5 Q. Was this prior to the placement of this child
6 within the home, Barry?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know why Walter was seeing this
9 therapist, Dr. Morin?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you know who was paying for that therapy?
12 A. Walter was.
13 Q. Do you still have a copy of that letter?
14 A. I never had the letter in my possession. I saw
15 it on the music room floor.
16 Q. Do you know if a copy of that letter still
17 exists in the possession of anyone within the Breen family
18 or Zimmer Bradley family?
19 A. No, I would certainly very much doubt that it
20 would. I don’t know that.
21 Q. Do you ever see that letter at any time after
22 the point that you showed it to Marion?
23 A. I didn’t show it to Marion. I saw it, and I
24 asked her about it, but, no, I never saw it again.
25 Q. Did Marion and you ever have any discussions
1 other than what you have just described to me regarding
2 that letter at that time?
3 A. I think I mentioned it again in October of 1989
4 when she was talking about boys Walter might have
5 molested. But basically, no, you know, I said this looks
6 weird. Marion said, no, this is impossible and forgot
7 about it for 10 years.
8 Q. Who was Sterling?
9 A. Sterling was a friend of Patrick’s.
10 Q. What was his full name?
11 A. I believe his last name was Orser, O-r-s-e-r.
12 Q. Did you ever see Walter and Sterling together?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Where did you see?
15 A. I mean, Sterling hung around the house a lot.
16 He didn’t like his stepfather, so he spent a lot of time
17 at our house.
18 Q. What time period was this that Sterling was
19 hanging around the house?
20 A. 1979 to 1981, maybe.
21 Q. During the time period 1979 through 1981, did
22 you ever see Sterling interact with Walter?
23 A. Could you be more specific? What do you mean
24 by “interact”?
25 Q. Did you ever see them touch?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you ever see them in the hot tub together?
3 A. I don’t remember. A lot of people went in the
4 hot tub. We usually all went in as a group.
5 Q. Do you ever remember seeing Walter naked in the
6 hot tub with any young boys at any time?
7 A. Well, I think I remember seeing Walter naked in
8 the hot tub with Anodea and Philip and Alex, and Alex was
9 an infant.
10 Q. Any other young children that you saw Walter
11 naked in the hot tub with?
12 A. Walter always went in the hot tub naked, and
13 sometimes Patrick and Moira and Ian and Fiona and the
14 adults from Greyhaven and Marion and I would all be there.
15 Q. Did you ever see Walter alone in the hot tub
16 naked with any young children?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you ever see Walter naked in the hot tub
19 with Ken Smith?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you ever see Walter touch Sterling
22 physically in any way?
23 A. Not that I recall.
24 Q. After reading this letter regarding Sterling,
25 did you ever ask Sterling whether Walter was touching him
1 in any inappropriate ways?
2 A. Not until 1989 or 1990, and I asked him then,
3 and he said Walter didn’t.
4 Q. Back at the time that you read the letter, did
5 you undertake any investigation to see whether Walter was
6 acting inappropriately with Sterling other than the
7 discussion that you have mentioned with Marion Zimmer
8 Bradley?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you ever call Dr. Morin?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you ever ask Walter about the letter?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Why not?
15 MR. BURESH: I’ll object to the question. It
16 assumes facts not evidence. It assumes there was some
17 reason why she didn’t do.
18 MR. DOLAN: Q. Is there any reason why you
19 didn’t ask Walter about the letter?
20 A. I was cleaning the music room, and I found it
21 on the floor. I picked it up and put it with the rest of
22 his papers. It wasn’t as if he had shown it to me, or it
23 was really any of my business.
24 Q. Did you think that that letter was odd?
25 A. I thought that practically everything Walter
1 did was odd.
2 Q. Did you think that letter was odd?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you think that letter — did that letter
5 cause you any concern at the time you read it about the
6 welfare of Sterling?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Why did you ask Marion about it then?
9 A. It just —
10 MR. BURESH: Objection, it’s argumentative.
11 MR. DOLAN: Q. You can answer.
12 MR. BURESH: Go ahead. You can answer the
13 question.
14 THE WITNESS: It just seemed weird.
15 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did it seem more weird than
16 other things that Walter was doing?
17 MR. BURESH: I’ll object to the question as
18 vague and ambiguous, and I instruct the witness not to
19 answer.
20 MR. DOLAN: Q. You say it was weird; what do
21 you mean by “weird”?
22 A. How did you feel when you moved from New
23 Canaan, Connecticut to the Bay Area?
24 Q. Liberated.
25 A. I felt confused. I felt culture shock.
1 Everything seemed strange.
2 Q. Okay. Did the fact that Walter was talking
3 about being horny around an underage boy seem more weird
4 than the other things that Walter was doing?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Would Walter talk about being horny in relating
7 to underage boys in other context during that time period?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And so that didn’t seem any different to you
10 than Walter’s other behavior?
11 A. I don’t understand the question.
12 Q. I’m trying to understand. Did you think it was
13 normal behavior, as Walter behaved, to talk about being
14 horny with an underage boy?
15 A. Yes, because I thought it was sort of teenage,”
16 I’m so great”,” I score”, type thing.
17 Q. Okay. And that was normal for Walter to act in
18 that manner?
19 MR. BURESH: In what manner? I’ll object to
20 the question, vague and ambiguous as to “that manner.”
21 MR. DOLAN: Q. Was it, from your observations
22 of Walter, was it normal for him to be acting in that
23 teenage kind of manner saying,” I’m great”,” I scored”?
24 A. From my observations of Walter, it was normal
25 for him to be acting very immature.
1 Q. Had you ever heard Walter acting immature
2 regarding sexuality or sexual issues before this letter
3 you saw of to Dr. Morin?
4 A. Not to the best of my recollection.
5 Q. Had you ever heard Walter discuss sexuality in
6 any way with you prior to reading this letter addressed to
7 Dr. Morin?
8 A. No.
9 Q. What were the other things that Walter did
10 which were as weird as what you read in this letter?
11 A. Well, he went naked a lot. He didn’t — he
12 didn’t really seem like a normal father. It’s like nobody
13 really respected him. It’s more as if he were a pet
14 people tolerated. You know, he knew coins, and he knew
15 music, and that was about it.
16 Q. And what weird thing, though, I mean, other
17 than being like a pet who people tolerated, what
18 activities, what things did you see or hear him do which
19 were as weird as stating in his letter to his therapist
20 that he missed this young man and not just because he was
21 horny?
22 MR. BURESH: Object to the question, assumes
23 facts not evidence, mainly that there were things that
24 were done that led her to believe that he was weird.
25 MR. DOLAN: She stated earlier that it wasn’t
1 much weirder than the other things he did.
2 THE WITNESS: Well, one day his house caught on
3 fire and he called me instead of the fire department.
4 MR. DOLAN: Q. Okay. What else?
5 A. I really don’t know. He just always seemed
6 weird to me.
7 Q. Did you, at that point, tell Marion that you —
8 and when I say — strike that.
9 At the point that you read this letter and
10 brought it to Marion’s attention, did you indicate any
11 concern for the welfare of Sterling to Marion?
12 A. Well, Sterling was a big strapping kid, and I
13 figured that if Walter tried anything Sterling didn’t
14 like, Sterling would flatten him.
15 Q. How old was Sterling at that time?
16 A. 15, 16.
17 Q. The question was, did you indicate any concern
18 to Marion at the time that you mentioned this letter to
19 Dr. Morin to her about the welfare the Sterling?
20 MR. BURESH: Other than the fact that she
21 brought it to Marion’s attention?
22 MR. DOLAN: Yeah.
23 THE WITNESS: Other than that, no, I don’t
24 think so.
25 MR. DOLAN: Q. Is there anything else that you
1 can recall about the conversation with Marion other than
2 what you said, I found this letter that Walter wrote that
3 says this, and Marion saying he’s impotent.
4 MR. BURESH: Other than what she has already
5 testified to?
6 MR. DOLAN: Right.
7 THE WITNESS: That’s all I remember.
8 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did the subject ever come up
9 again between the time that you first discussed it with
10 Marion then and the time that Kenny was reported in 1989?
11 A. No.
12 MR. BURESH: I don’t know what subject you’re
13 talking about. The subject of Sterling Orser and the Dr.
14 Morin letter?
15 MR. DOLAN: Q. The subject of the Dr. Morin
16 letter and Sterling Orser ever come up again?
17 A. No, it did not.
18 Q. Did the subject of a possible molestation of
19 Sterling Orser ever come up again between the time of that
20 letter and the time that Kenny’s molestation was reported?
21 MR. BURESH: Object to the question, misstates
22 her testimony, assumes facts not in evidence.
23 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did the subject of any improper
24 conduct or possible improper conduct between Walter and
25 Sterling Orser ever come up between the time of talking
1 with Marion about that letter and the time Kenny’s sexual
2 molestation was reported in 1989?
3 MR. BURESH: Same objection.
4 MR. DOLAN: Q. You can answer unless you’re
5 instructed not to answer.
6 MR. BURESH: I just wish you would rephrase the
7 question because the subject was the letter to Dr. Morin.
8 He said he was — he missed him because he was horny.
9 THE WITNESS: Not just because he was horny.
10 MR. BURESH: Not just because he was horny.
11 Now whether that implies improper conduct or not is the
12 assumption that’s built into the question. It’s not
13 coming from what the witness said, so I think it’s a
14 mischaracterization of her testimony, and it assumes facts
15 not in evidence.
16 So I would ask that the question be rephrased.
17 As to the current question, I’ll instruct the witness not
18 to answer.
19 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ask Marion, at the time
20 that you showed her this letter, whether she thought that
21 Walter might be doing anything improper with Sterling?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. Between the time that you had that
24 discussion with Marion and the time that Kenny’s
25 molestation was reported, did the subject of Walter
1 possibly doing something improper with Sterling ever come
2 up again?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Are you aware of any other letters that Walter
5 wrote that in any way referenced anything sexual about
6 children?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you ever read any of Walter’s diaries?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Have you ever seen any of Walter’s diaries?
11 A. I think I saw part of one when — during the
12 police investigation when they were trying to find
13 somebody who could decipher the darn things. I couldn’t.
14 Q. Did you ever see Walter’s diaries at the
15 goldfish bowl?
16 A. I might have seen some of them on a bookshelf
17 someplace. I don’t really remember.
18 Q. Do you have any knowledge of where those
19 diaries are today?
20 A. I believe Patrick has them.
21 Q. Did you ever touch those diaries personally
22 yourself?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Were you ever aware of any instructions to burn
25 Walter’s diaries?
1 A. Certainly no such instructions were ever given
2 to me.
3 Q. Were you ever aware of there being any
4 instructions like that?
5 MR. BURESH: At any time including up to the
6 present time?
7 MR. DOLAN: Yeah.
8 THE WITNESS: I have heard that Moira has
9 written or said something that she had instructions to
10 burn his diaries if the police came.
11 MR. DOLAN: Q. Were you ever aware of that
12 before the report of Kenny Smith’s molestation in ’89?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you ever clean out the goldfish bowl of any
15 papers or articles of Walter Breen’s?
16 A. Yes, in 1993 after they gave you the lease and
17 moved out.
18 Q. What did you do with those papers?
19 A. I gave them to Jonathan Chase, who is the
20 lawyer handling Walter’s estate.
21 Q. Did you throw any of Walter Breen’s papers out
22 at that time?
23 A. I think we recycled some old Numismatic News,
24 like newspapers but not any personal papers.
25 Q. When you went through his property in 1993, did
1 you ever see any pornographic material?
2 A. There was some photographs. I think the top
3 one on the stack was a naked man, and I sort of looked at
4 them and went, “yuck,” and passed them to Raul, and said
5 “Should we turn these over to the police?” And Raul went
6 through the top couple and he said, “yes.”
7 So we called the police, and the police officer
8 came out and took them, and he told him that Walter had
9 been arrested for child molesting, and that Cynthia Harris
10 had been the investigating officer, and they should
11 probably go to her.
12 Q. Who was the officer that you turned them over
13 to?
14 A. I don’t remember. It would have been the
15 officer, whoever they sent out.
16 Q. How big was this stack of photographs?
17 A. About half an inch, maybe three-eights of an
18 inch.
19 Q. Do you know if there are any photographs in
20 there of men with boys?
21 A. No, I don’t know. I didn’t look at them.
22 Q. Did you know what was on any of the other
23 pictures other than the top one?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did Walter have any pornographic magazines in
1 the house in ’93 when you went through his personal
2 effects?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you know if Walter had any letters written
5 to any young children in his personal effects when you
6 went through them in 1993?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you read any of Walter’s letters when you
9 went through any of his personal effects in 1993?
10 A. I sort of flipped through stuff enough to sort
11 it, to sort out the tax papers from the other stuff, the
12 other junk.
13 Q. Did you ever see any letters written to Ken
14 Smith in there?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Were you ever aware of any letters that Walter
17 wrote to be delivered to Ken Smith posthumously?
18 A. At one point in October of ’89, as to the best
19 of my recollection, Walter said that he had written to
20 Kenny, but I don’t believe the letter was ever delivered.
21 Q. Do you know who had possession of the letter?
22 A. I would imagine Walter did.
23 Q. Did you ever see it?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did he ever tell you who had possession of it?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Getting back to this time period sometime in —
3 well, before 1981 when you saw the letter from Dr. Morin,
4 prior to that, had you ever seen anything that caused you
5 any concern about Walter’s conduct around young boys?
6 A. No.
7 Q. How long did Barry live with you?
8 A. Some months, I don’t remember exactly.
9 Q. Do you know if Walter ever acted in any way
10 inappropriately with Barry during that time period?
11 A. To the best of my knowledge, no.
12 Q. Has anyone ever made any allegations that
13 you’re aware of that Barry acted — strike that.
14 — that Walter acted inappropriately during
15 that time period?
16 A. Barry got arrested or picked up or something
17 about a year later and apparently then he said something,
18 but nobody believed him because the police had already
19 talked to him before, and he denied it.
20 Q. Do you know where Barry got picked up or
21 arrested?
22 A. I think it was San Francisco.
23 Q. Do you remember Barry’s last name?
24 A. Austin.
25 Q. How do you spell that?
1 A. A-u-s-t-i-n.
2 Q. Do you know where his parents live?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you know anybody that was a family relative
5 of his; did you ever come to know where they live?
6 A. He had a mother. She came to visit him once
7 while he was living with us, but other than that, I know
8 of no relatives.
9 Q. Do you know where the mother came from?
10 A. Not really. I would guess San Francisco, but
11 that’s just a guess.
12 Q. Do you know his middle name?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know his date of birth?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you recall if he had a birthday during the
17 time that he was living with you?
18 A. I think not.
19 Q. Was he white, black, Mexican, any particular
20 race?
21 A. I believe he was mixture of white, black and
22 Miwok Indian.
23 Q. Did you ever hear anything about Barry Austin
24 other than what you just described about being arrested a
25 year later?
1 A. Some years later when Marion had a stroke — I
2 don’t remember whether it was the ’87 stroke or the ’89
3 stroke — he showed up on the doorstep one day, and he
4 said he heard she was sick and he came by to say, to give
5 his best wishes for a speedy recovery.
6 Q. Did you ask him where he was living at that
7 time?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you have any understanding where he was
10 living at that time?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you have any understanding what his
13 occupation was at that time period?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know if he ever enlisted in the
16 military?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you know if he had any brothers or sisters?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you know anybody who might know where Barry
21 Austin is located now?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you know anybody who kept in any contact
24 with Barry Austin?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Do you know where he was picked up on this
2 charge a year after, you said San Francisco, was it?
3 A. I don’t really know.
4 Q. How did you hear that he had been picked up on
5 a charge a year later?
6 A. Somebody phoned me, but I don’t remember who.
7 Q. Do you know if it was someone from a police
8 organization?
9 A. I don’t remember.
10 Q. Can you tell me what was discussed in the
11 conversation, to the best of your knowledge?
12 A. I think it was not the police. I think it was
13 probably some, some — somebody who knew the family, and
14 they said that Barry had been picked up and that he was
15 saying that Walter had molested him.
16 Q. What did they say about the issue of Walter
17 molesting Barry?
18 A. Nothing. They just said that Barry was
19 claiming that.
20 Q. Did you ask Marion about that?
21 A. No, I don’t think so. Marion may have been
22 away at a convention or something.
23 Q. Did you ever discuss the possible molestation
24 of Barry Austin with Marion Zimmer Bradley at any point up
25 to the time that Ken Smith’s molestation was reported to
1 the police?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you undertake any inquire pre the
4 investigation after hearing that Barry had alleged that
5 Walter Breen had molested him?
6 A. No, I didn’t. Why should I? The police were
7 doing it.
8 Q. How did you know the police were doing it?
9 A. Because if he was picked up and he was telling
10 the police that Walter had molested him, presumably the
11 police were investigating this.
12 Q. Did you say anything back to the person who
13 said to you that Barry was accusing Walter of molesting
14 him?
15 A. I believe I said that Barry always was a liar.
16 Q. Did you ever talk to Patrick or Moira about
17 whether or not Barry’s alleged statements to the police
18 that Walter was molesting him were true or not?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Were you ever contacted by the police regarding
21 the investigation on Barry Austin’s allegations of child
22 molestation by Walter Breen?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Were you ever contacted by the Child Protective
25 Services in any way regarding the allegations by Barry
1 Austin that Walter Breen was molesting him?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you ever apply for another foster child
4 through the same group?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Any particular reason why not?
7 A. Well —
8 MR. BURESH: Object to the question. It’s
9 argumentative, assumes facts not in evidence. I instruct
10 the witness not to answer. You’ll have to rephrase the
11 question. If somebody says they didn’t do something, and
12 you say, “why didn’t you do it?”, that’s just not a fair
13 question.
14 MR. DOLAN: Q. Why didn’t you apply for
15 another child, for a foster child?
16 MR. BURESH: Same objection.
17 MR. DOLAN: Are you instructing her not to
18 answer?
19 MR. BURESH: Yes.
20 MR. DOLAN: Mark it.
21 (Whereupon, the previous question was marked
22 for the record.)
23 MR. DOLAN: Q. You didn’t apply for another
24 child through a foster service, correct?
25 MR. BURESH: Let me just ask, when you say
1 “you,” do you mean Elisabeth, personally, or Walter and
2 Marion? So you’re asking her to speak on behalf of the
3 whole family?
4 MR. DOLAN: Q. Who applied for the child?
5 A. You mean Barry?
6 Q. Yeah.
7 A. We didn’t exactly apply for Barry. After Barry
8 came to live with us, Social Services did the
9 investigation so he could stay.
10 Q. How did Barry come to live with you?
11 A. A friend of Walter’s brought him.
12 Q. Who is the friend of Walter’s who brought him?
13 A. His name was Richard Khilstadius.
14 Q. Do you know if he was a priest or clergyman of
15 some sort?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know where he is currently?
18 A. I believe he lives somewhere in San Francisco,
19 but I haven’t seen him in years.
20 Q. When he brought him, did Mr. Khilstadius in any
21 way indicate whether or not Barry was a child prostitute?
22 A. Not that I heard of.
23 Q. Did he ever have any discussions with you or
24 Walter about Barry being sexually inappropriate in any
25 way?
1 A. No.
2 Q. So if I understand it, Richard Khilstadius
3 brings Barry to live with the people living at 221 Prince
4 Street?
5 A. 2221.
6 Q. 2221?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And at some point then, there’s an application
9 made for him to become a foster child; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And who filed the application?
12 A. Well, since Barry was a ward of the court, in
13 order for him to stay with us, the paperwork had to be
14 sorted out, and that was just a matter of sorting out all
15 the paperwork.
16 Q. Who sorted out all the paperwork?
17 A. I don’t know.
18 Q. Were you involved in that process?
19 A. Not directly.
20 Q. Do you know if any documents were filed with
21 any courts regarding Barry Austin being put into the
22 custody of the group there on Prince Street?
23 A. I don’t know.
24 Q. Were you in any way designated as a legal
25 guardian of Barry Austin?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you know if Marion was?
3 A. I believe Marion and Walter were jointly.
4 Actually, this may have been ’80 rather than ’81 because
5 it was when — it was before — it was when Marion and I
6 were still living on Telegraph Avenue, and Walter was
7 living on Prince Street, so it may have only been Walter
8 who was designated as the guardian. I really don’t know.
9 Q. Can you tell me anything else about the
10 conversation you had with this unidentified party who
11 called you to tell you that Barry was making allegations
12 that he had been molested when he was living on Prince
13 Street?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Can you tell me anything more about who this
16 person might have been who placed this call to you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were there any other children living at Prince
19 Street at the time that you received this call about
20 Barry’s allegations other than Moira and Patrick?
21 A. I don’t remember if it was Moira and Patrick.
22 No, I don’t remember exactly when this call was. It was
23 over a year after Barry left, so I guess it would have
24 been Moira and Patrick.
25 Q. Any other children living there at that time
1 that you’re aware of?
2 A. I think not.
3 Q. Did you ever discuss these allegations of
4 Patrick — strike that.
5 Did you ever discuss these allegations of
6 Walter molesting Barry Austin with Walter?
7 A. No.
8 Q. I may have asked you this. Did you ever
9 discuss them with Marion?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you ever discuss it with anybody after you
12 had the phone call?
13 A. No, not that I recall.
14 Q. Through the present time, other than perhaps
15 with counsel, have you ever discussed the issue of this
16 phone call regarding Barry Austin’s molestation?
17 A. No.
18 Q. So at this point in time, you read this letter
19 regarding Walter’s statements on Sterling, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you’ve heard, at least, an allegation of
22 Barry Austin that Walter was molesting him, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. At this point are you getting at all concerned
25 about Walter’s interaction with young boys?
1 A. No.
2 Q. At this point you’re also aware that Walter has
3 written the book Greek Love, correct?
4 A. I’m not sure I was aware of it that soon. I
5 think it was a couple years later that I learned about
6 that.
7 Q. Didn’t you indicate that prior to Mr. Austin
8 coming to live there that you were aware that Walter had
9 authored articles on the issues of men and boys like those
10 contained in Greek Love?
11 MR. BURESH: Let me hear the question again,
12 please.
13 THE WITNESS: I’m not aware —
14 MR. BURESH: Before you answer, let me hear the
15 question read back.
16 (Whereupon, the record was back by the
17 reporter.)
18 MR. BURESH: Okay.
19 THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge that Walter
20 wrote articles. I know he wrote Greek Love. I don’t
21 remember exactly when I learned he wrote Greek Love, and I
22 did not read Greek Love until I found a copy for Officer
23 Harris in 1989.
24 MR. DOLAN: Q. Okay. But at this time you
25 read Walter’s letter to Dr. Morin, correct?
1 A. I saw a paragraph of it.
2 MR. BURESH: And by “this time,” you’re
3 referring to the time of the phone call regarding Barry?
4 MR. DOLAN: Sure.
5 Q. And you have heard a phone call regarding an
6 allegation of molestation by Barry Austin, correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you undertake any investigation at that time
9 to find out whether or not Walter Breen was acting
10 improperly in a sexual manner with any of the people who
11 were on the property at Prince Street?
12 MR. BURESH: Other than what she has already
13 testified to?
14 MR. DOLAN: Q. Other than — the only thing I
15 have never heard you testify to is that you asked Marion
16 about the letter?
17 A. Uh-hum.
18 Q. Other than asking Marion about the letter, did
19 you do anything after hearing about Barry Austin’s
20 allegation of molestation to inquire as to whether or not
21 Walter Breen was acting inappropriately with any children
22 on any of the properties owned by Marion Zimmer Bradley?
23 A. The only property owned at the time was 2221
24 Prince Street, which was owned jointly by Marion and
25 Walter, and the children living in it were Walter’s own
1 children, so, no.
2 Q. Did you inquire in any way to find out whether
3 or not Walter was acting inappropriately with the numerous
4 guests that you said were often there who were friends of
5 Moira’s and Patrick’s?
6 A. No.
7 MR. DOLAN: Do you guys want to take a break at
8 this point? We have been going for a while.
9 MR. BURESH: It’s up to the witness.
10 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.)
11 MR. DOLAN: Q. Do you know if Richard
12 Khilstadius has ever been accused of child molestation?
13 A. Accused by whom?
14 Q. Anyone.
15 A. I think I sort of heard vague gossip that he
16 might be, but I never heard that anybody actually accused
17 him.
18 Q. Who did you hear vague gossip from that Richard
19 Khilstadius might be a child molester; who did you hear
20 that from?
21 A. I don’t really remember.
22 Q. Did you ever discuss that with Marion?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you ever discuss it with anyone?
25 A. No, I was brought up to believe that other
1 people’s sex lives were none of my business.
2 MR. BURESH: You’re volunteering.
3 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
4 MR. DOLAN: Q. What other fosterlings lived at
5 the house in the ’81 to ’85 time period besides Barry and
6 [Name A], anyone?
7 A. I think Kat Krischild.
8 Q. Is Kat Krischild a female?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know how old Kat Krischild was when she
11 lived there?
12 A. You already asked me this, and I already
13 answered this.
14 Q. Humor me, please.
15 MR. BURESH: I wrote that one down.
16 MR. DOLAN: I may have too.
17 THE WITNESS: I remember, I believe she was in
18 her early 20’s.
19 MR. DOLAN: Q. How old was Elizabeth Rousseau
20 when they moved in there?
21 A. I think 18.
22 Q. Do you know if Marion Zimmer Bradley and [Name A] ever had any
sexual relationships?
24 A. I think there was one incident.
25 Q. Was that an orgy?
1 MR. BURESH: Do you want to define “orgy” for
2 the witness?
3 MR. DOLAN: It’s been talked about in this
4 litigation so far that it involved more than [Name A]
5 and Marion Zimmer Bradley; it may have involved two
6 other partners?
7 A. Yes, I believe it did.
8 Q. Do you know when that occurred?
9 A. I believe it was in 1983.
10 Q. Do you know where it occurred?
11 A. It was at Philip and Anodea’s house.
12 Q. Was there any special occasion; was it Marion’s
13 birthday or anything?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know who arranged it?
16 A. It was a sort of spontaneous thing.
17 Q. Did you have any role in arranging that?
18 MR. BURESH: Assumes facts not in evidence.
19 There’s no evidence that anybody arranged anything.
20 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you have any role in that
21 coming about?
22 MR. BURESH: In what coming about; the get
23 together or the orgy?
24 MR. DOLAN: The orgy.
25 MR. BURESH: Okay.
1 MR. BURESH: Have we decided on the term “orgy”
2 yet?
3 MR. DOLAN: Like I said, more than two parties
4 involved.
5 Q. How many parties were involved in the sexual
6 activity?
7 A. Four.
8 Q. Do you consider four people involved in a
9 sexual activity to be an orgy?
10 MR. BURESH: Object to the question. It’s
11 irrelevant, not reasonably calculated to lead to the
12 discovery of admissible evidence. Who cares what she
13 characterizes it as.
14 MR. DOLAN: Q. You can answer.
15 MR. BURESH: No, I’ll instruct the witness not
16 to answer.
17 MR. DOLAN: Q. What do you call four people
18 together having sex?
19 MR. BURESH: Object. As if she calls it
20 anything. It really doesn’t matter, Chris.
21 MR. DOLAN: Well, I’m trying to use a word that
22 she wants me to define.
23 MR. BURESH: How about “group sex”?
24 MR. DOLAN: Q. Would you call four people
25 together having sex an orgy?
1 A. No, I don’t think I would.
2 Q. Have you ever defined this particular episode
3 of these four people together as an orgy?
4 A. I don’t remember.
5 Q. How old was [Name A] when this occurred?
6 A. 19, to the best of my knowledge.
7 Q. Who was involved in this particular group
8 activity?
9 A. [Name A], Phil, Anodea and Marion.
10 Q. And there was a fourth party, as well?
11 A. That is four people.
12 Q. Were you involved in it?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you witness it?
15 A. Not really.
16 Q. Could you explain, please?
17 A. I was over at Philip and Anodea’s house
18 visiting them, and [Name A] was over there for some reason or
19 another. I think she was chasing after Philip. I think
20 she was having an affair with Philip at the time. And
21 Marion was coming over, and I made some stupid joke about
22 if you really want to make Marion happy, why don’t you
23 jump her when she comes through the door and have sex with
24 her. Probably the stupidest and most tasteless thing I
25 ever said in my entire live, but I never expected them to
1 take me seriously, and when Marion did, they did it.
2 I just sort of rolled over on the other side of
3 the room and closed my eyes and pretended to be asleep.
4 Q. Were there any other people in the room besides
5 yourself and those four?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were there any children present at the time?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Was [Name A] still living at the house
10 at that time?
11 A. At Prince Street?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you know if Marion and [Name A] ever
15 had a physical relationship besides that one occasion?
16 A. I’m pretty sure they didn’t because Marion was
17 really mad at me for that. She said [Name A] had been trying
18 to crawl into her bed for months, and until then, she had
19 successfully avoided her.
20 Q. Did Kat Krischild and Marion ever have a sexual
21 relationship, as far as you know?
22 A. As far as I know, no.
23 Q. How about Elizabeth Rousseau?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did anyone ever mention anything to you about a
1 young boy being in Walter’s bed at Prince Street?
2 A. There was one night while Marion and I were
3 still living at Telegraph Avenue when Moira called in the
4 middle of the night and said that Barry Austin was in
5 Walter’s bed. This was after Social Services had taken
6 him back and he was out on the streets again, and Walter
7 didn’t know he was there, but Moira had gotten up in the
8 middle of the night and found them there and called us.
9 And because Barry had been coming back and bothering Moira
10 prior to this, I had told him the time before that if he
11 ever came back again, I would call the police.
12 Marion and I got up and got dressed and came
13 over to Prince Street, and I did call the police. And the
14 police came, and they woke up Barry, and they asked him
15 what he was doing in Walter’s bed. And he said he was
16 sleeping there because he knew that Walter wouldn’t be
17 there, and then the police sent Marion and me out of the
18 room, and they talked to Barry.
19 Q. Did the police ask you any further questions
20 about what Barry was doing in Walter’s bed?
21 A. No.
22 Q. How long after Barry had moved out did this
23 occur?
24 A. Six months, maybe.
25 Q. Did Moira indicate to you that she thought
1 there was something inappropriate going on between Barry
2 and Walter?
3 A. No, she was just furious to find him on the
4 property.
5 Q. Did you ever ask Walter what Barry was doing in
6 his bed?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Was Walter home when the police came?
9 A. Yes, I believe he was working in the music
10 room, which is upstairs at the other end of the house.
11 Q. Do you know if the police interviewed Walter at
12 all about what Barry was doing in his bed?
13 A. I think they must have, but I don’t remember
14 for certain.
15 Q. Did Barry have his own bed when he lived at the
16 house?
17 A. Yes, of course.
18 Q. What was the room that Barry occupied when he
19 was living in the house?
20 A. It was one of the downstairs bedrooms. The
21 bedrooms are sort of — there is a room, and there are two
22 bedrooms off of it, and he was in the middle room.
23 Patrick’s bedroom was off one side and Moira’s bedroom was
24 off the other.
25 Q. And where was Walter’s in relationship to
1 those?
2 A. After that there is the laundry room, the hall,
3 the bathroom and Walter’s room.
4 Q. Was anybody living in Barry’s room the night
5 that he was in Walter’s bed?
6 A. I don’t remember.
7 Q. As far as you know, was Barry’s bed available
8 for Barry to sleep in the night that he was found in
9 Walter’s bed?
10 A. I don’t know, but Moira would have found him
11 there much faster because it was right next to her room,
12 so if he was trying to hide from Moira, Walter’s bed was a
13 better bet.
14 Q. When you say “hide from Moira,” why would he be
15 hiding from Moira?
16 A. Because Moira hated his guts and didn’t want
17 him on the property, and he wasn’t supposed to be there.
18 I mean, he had committed an unlawful entry, for starters.
19 Q. Was he arrested for that, do you know?
20 A. The police took him away. I don’t know if they
21 finally arrested him.
22 MR. DOLAN: I’ve got to make a call. Excuse me,
23 please.
24 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.)
25 MR. DOLAN: Would you read the last question
1 and answer for me.
2 (Whereupon, the record was read by the
3 reporter.)
4 MR. DOLAN: Q. Were you ever notified by
5 anyone that there were any young boys in Walter’s bed
6 other than Barry on any occasion?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And you never undertook any investigation after
9 Barry was found in the bed to find out why he was there,
10 correct?
11 A. No — I mean, yes, that’s correct.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. No, I did not investigate.
14 Q. Were you ever aware of Walter being alone in
15 his bedroom with any young boys?
16 A. No.
17 Q. We sort of covered who was there from 1981
18 through 1985. When did Walter move over to the goldfish
19 bowl?
20 A. 1987. Sorry, no, wait a minute. I guess it
21 was 1985.
22 Q. Let’s go on to another topic here. Do you have
23 any information that would pertain to Marion Zimmer
24 Bradley having any sexual interaction with Moira Stern?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Have you ever heard that issue discussed at any
2 time?
3 A. I have heard Moira say some things about it.
4 Q. What have you heard Moira say about it?
5 A. She said that one time her mother fondled her
6 breasts while she was in the shower.
7 Q. Anything else?
8 A. That Moira said to me, no.
9 Q. Okay. Did you ever ask Marion if any of that
10 was true?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What did Marion say?
13 A. She said that children before the age of
14 puberty didn’t have erogenous zones.
15 Q. Anything else she said to you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. When did she tell you that?
18 A. When I asked her if — when I said that Moira
19 was — when I said that I had been visiting Moira in the
20 hospital, and that Moira had said that Marion fondled her
21 breasts in the shower.
22 Q. How old was — strike that.
23 What year was this that you had this discussion
24 with Marion Zimmer Bradley?
25 A. I guess it would have been around 1990.
1 Q. Did you ever ask Marion if she actually did
2 fondle Moira?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you ever inquire of Marion whether there
5 was any truth about Moira’s statement that Marion had been
6 touching her breasts when she was in the shower?
7 A. No, I just told her Moira had said that, and
8 she said that children that age didn’t have erogenous
9 zones.
10 Q. Did you ask her what she meant by that?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you find that to be an odd statement by
13 Marion Zimmer Bradley?
14 MR. BURESH: Object to the question. Instruct
15 the witness not to answer. It’s vague and ambiguous.
16 MR. DOLAN: I don’t think that is grounds for
17 an instruction not to answer. Are you instructing her not
18 to answer on the grounds of vague and ambiguous?
19 MR. BURESH: If I object to the question, I can
20 instruct the witness not to answer. If it’s vague and
21 ambiguous and it’s an improper question, I don’t see why
22 the witness should be forced to answer it.
23 MR. DOLAN: I just want to know if you are
24 instructing the witness not to answer on the grounds of
25 vague and ambiguous?
1 MR. BURESH: Yes.
2 MR. DOLAN: Mark it, please.
3 (Whereupon, the previous question was marked
4 for the record.)
5 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did the statement by Marion
6 Zimmer Bradley that children did not have erogenous zones
7 cause you any concern of any type?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Had you ever heard Marion Zimmer Bradley make
10 that statement before?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Had you ever heard Marion Zimmer Bradley make
13 any statements to that effect before?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Before this time that Moira was in the
16 hospital, had you ever heard anything within the family
17 about allegations that Marion Zimmer Bradley had molested
18 Moira?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Other than this statement made by Moira in the
21 hospital that Marion had molested her, have you ever heard
22 or seen or read any allegations of molestation by Moira
23 Breen against her mother Marion Zimmer Bradley?
24 MR. BURESH: Is there a time frame on this
25 question? I’m sorry, any time up until today?
1 MR. DOLAN: Yeah.
2 MR. BURESH: Okay.
3 THE WITNESS: You mean like the stuff I read
4 last night?
5 MR. DOLAN: I don’t know.
6 MR. BURESH: He means anything that’s in your
7 head as of today including the police report that you have
8 reviewed, the Moira documents, the letters that you
9 produced, et cetera, et cetera.
10 MR. DOLAN: Q. Anything.
11 A. Well, there were some documents that she
12 produced at the deposition that I sort of skimmed through
13 last night, and I think there was something in there about
14 that, and it was vague and sort of crazy sounding.
15 Q. Okay. Before last night, had you ever read or
16 heard anything other than just the statement that Moira
17 had made in the hospital that her mother had touched her
18 breasts that in any way alluded to Moira being molested by
19 her mother as a child?
20 A. No.
21 Q. So it’s your testimony that prior to yesterday,
22 the only thing you had ever heard regarding Moira Breen
23 having allegations against her mother of molestation was
24 this one statement that her mother had touched her breasts
25 when she was in the shower?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you ever investigate with anyone to find
3 out whether there was any truth to the allegation that
4 Marion Zimmer Bradley had touched Moira Breen’s breasts
5 when she was in the shower?
6 A. With whom would I have investigated it?
7 MR. BURESH: Just answer the question.
8 THE WITNESS: No.
9 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever talk to Marion
10 about it in any more detail other than the two sentences
11 you indicated that Moira said this and Marion responded
12 back that children don’t have erogenous zones?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. Did that satisfy your — strike that.
15 Did you find Marion’s answer to be a
16 satisfactory answer to your question of why did Moira say
17 this?
18 MR. BURESH: I will object to the question, on
19 the grounds of vague and ambiguous.
20 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ask Marion, “Is there
21 any truth to the allegation that Moira has made that you
22 touched her breasts when she was in the shower”?
23 A. No, I did not ask her that.
24 Q. What exactly did you say to Marion?
25 A. That I had been visiting Moira in the hospital
1 and that Moira had complained that Marion had touched her
2 breasts when she was in the shower once.
3 Q. Okay. And Marion’s response was that children
4 that age don’t have erogenous zones; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What age did you understand that she was
7 talking about?
8 A. Nine.
9 Q. So do you understand that Moira alleged that
10 Marion had done this when she was about nine?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How did you come to that understanding?
13 A. I believe Moira told me.
14 Q. So what was the full extent of what Moira told
15 you when she talked to you about the alleged act of Marion
16 touching her breasts?
17 A. She said that when she was about nine she was
18 in the shower and Marion touched her breast.
19 Q. And that’s what you related to Marion, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you ever have any discussions with Marion,
22 other than the one where Marion said that children of that
23 age don’t have erogenous zones, concerning the molestation
24 or the alleged molestation of Moira?
25 MR. BURESH: I’m sorry. I’ve got to hear that
1 again.
2 MR. DOLAN: I’ll do it again.
3 MR. BURESH: I didn’t get it.
4 MR. DOLAN: Q. Other than that conversation
5 where you just related to us where you said that Moira had
6 told you that Marion touched her breasts in the shower
7 when she was nine and Marion replied that children that
8 age don’t have erogenous zones, did you ever discuss with
9 Marion Zimmer Bradley at any time up to the present day
10 any allegations of molestation with Moira Breen?
11 A. By Marion?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. No.
14 Q. And it’s your testimony that through the
15 present day that the only information up through last
16 night in reading Moira’s information produced at the
17 deposition, that you were aware of any acts of molestation
18 between Marion Zimmer Bradley and Moira Breen; is that
19 correct?
20 A. To the best of my knowledge and recollection,
21 that’s the only alleged act of molestation of which I have
22 heard prior to last night.
23 Q. Did you ever read the police reports prior to
24 last night?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you ever read any of those allegations of
2 molestation by Marion Zimmer Bradley against Moira Breen
3 in any of the police reports?
4 MR. BURESH: Object to the question. You are
5 certainly welcome to show the witness the portions you’re
6 referring to. She said what she said, so you’re assuming
7 facts not in evidence. I have got the police report right
8 here, and we can certainly —
9 MR. DOLAN: We will go over it later, line by
10 line.
11 Q. Did anyone ever tell you that Patrick Breen had
12 been molested by Marion Zimmer Bradley?
13 A. Not exactly.
14 Q. Okay. Could you explain your answer, please?
15 A. When the investigation about Kenny was going
16 on, I went to Patrick, who was trying very hard to stay
17 out of this, and asked if Walter had ever molested him,
18 and Patrick said, “No, which is more than I can say for my
19 mother and some of my baby-sitters.”
20 Q. Anyone else ever make any statements that might
21 have led you to believe that Marion Zimmer Bradley may
22 have molested Patrick Breen?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you ask Patrick at all what he meant by
25 that statement?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you find that statement to be at all
3 unusual?
4 MR. BURESH: Object to the question. I really
5 don’t know what it means. Did she find it to be unusual?
6 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you find it an unusual
7 statement that Patrick said “that’s more than I can say
8 about my mother,” when you were asking him the question?
9 MR. BURESH: Object to the question because the
10 word “unusual” is vague and ambiguous.
11 MR. DOLAN: Q. You can answer it.
12 MR. BURESH: Instruct the witness not to
13 answer.
14 MR. DOLAN: Mark it.
15 (Whereupon, the previous question was marked
16 for the record.)
17 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you feel that it was —
18 strike that.
19 Did you have any concerns about Patrick’s
20 statement that that was more than he could say about his
21 mother?
22 MR. BURESH: Let me hear that again, please.
23 MR. DOLAN: I’ll do it again.
24 Q. Give me the conversation between you and
25 Patrick again, please, regarding the question of whether
1 Walter had ever molested him and what his response was.
2 A. I asked if Walter had ever molested him, and he
3 said, “No, which is more than I can say about my mother
4 and some of my baby-sitters.”
5 Q. Did the fact that he said — did his reply
6 cause you any concern whatsoever that he may have been
7 molested by his mother?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. Did you inquire to him any further about
10 what he meant by that statement?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you undertake any investigation whatsoever
13 to determine whether or not Marion Zimmer Bradley had ever
14 molested her son, Patrick?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you ask Patrick anything more on the
17 subject of whether he was ever molested by his mother?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you ask Moira about it ever?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you ask Walter about it ever?
22 A. When Moira said that Walter raped her when she
23 was five, I asked Walter about that.
24 Q. But did you ever ask Walter whether or not he
25 had any facts that would lead him to believe that Marion
1 Zimmer Bradley had molested Patrick?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And you never asked Marion whether she molested
4 Patrick; is that correct?
5 A. No, that is correct, I did not ask her.
6 Q. Did you ever tell her what Patrick had said?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Why not?
9 MR. BURESH: Objection.
10 MR. DOLAN: Q. Is there any particular reason
11 why you did not relate what Patrick had told her — told
12 you to Marion Zimmer Bradley?
13 A. At the time, we were all so traumatized that I
14 didn’t want to add to anybody’s trauma anymore than they
15 were already traumatized, and Patrick was an adult at that
16 point, and whatever Marion may have done to him in the
17 past was clearly over.
18 Q. Did you have any understanding as to what frame
19 in time that this alleged molestation of Patrick had
20 occurred?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you ask anyone to find out or — strike
23 that.
24 Did you ask Patrick how old he was when this
25 alleged molestation occurred?
1 A. No.
2 Q. So you did nothing further to inquire about
3 this alleged act of molestation by Marion Zimmer Bradley
4 against Patrick; is that correct?
5 A. That’s correct.
6 Q. Other than the allegation by Moira and Patrick
7 that Marion molested them, did anyone else to your
8 knowledge ever make any allegation that Marion Zimmer
9 Bradley had molested them?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you ever make any statement to Moira Breen
12 that Marion Zimmer Bradley had molested both of you?
13 A. No. I was 25 when I met her.
14 MR. BURESH: No, just answer the question.
15 THE WITNESS: No.
16 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever make any statement
17 to Moira Breen that if she had had the opportunity, she
18 would jump in bed with her mother again?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Now, you indicated that Moira also had told you
21 at some point that she had been raped by her father when
22 she was five; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When did she tell you that?
25 A. After the investigation with Kenny started.
1 Q. What did she tell you about suffering rape at
2 the hands of her father?
3 A. She said that she was five years old, and it
4 was his birthday and that he said she was his birthday
5 present, and he raped her.
6 Q. When did she tell you that, approximately what
7 time frame, as best you can, month and year?
8 A. October, November. I don’t know. Sometime in
9 ’89.
10 Q. And did you do anything to investigate the
11 truthfulness of that statement?
12 A. I asked Walter.
13 Q. What did Walter tell you?
14 A. He denied it.
15 Q. Please tell me the full substance of the
16 conversation as best you can recall?
17 A. I asked if it was true that he raped Moira when
18 she was five, and he said, “No, of course not,” and that
19 she was a liar, and I said,” But isn’t that the period of
20 your life you don’t remember much of? ” And he said,
21 “yes.”
22 Q. Did you ever ask Marion about Moira allegations
23 that Walter had raped her?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you ever discuss Moira’s allegation that
1 Walter had raped her with Marion Zimmer Bradley?
2 A. I think Moira told her sometime, a couple of
3 months later.
4 MR. BURESH: That’s not the question he asked
5 you.
6 THE WITNESS: I’m sorry.
7 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever discuss it?
8 A. I don’t think so.
9 Q. Has Moira ever recounted to you any other
10 episodes of sexual abuse that she suffered at the hands of
11 either her mother or her father other than the ones you
12 have identified?
13 A. Not that I recall.
14 Q. Are you aware of any — strike that.
15 Are you aware of what the term “satanic ritual
16 abuse” means?
17 A. I believe so, yes.
18 Q. Has Moira Breen ever told you that she believes
19 that she was a victim of satanic ritual abuse?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. BURESH: I would like the witness to define
22 what she means by “satanic ritual.” I don’t know what the
23 term means exactly. I would like to make sure, for the
24 record, that both questioner and answerer are talking
25 about the same thing.
1 MR. DOLAN: Q. What do you understand satanic
2 ritual abuse to be?
3 A. People who worship Satan who, as part of their
4 ritual, abuse children or, I suppose, adults would count
5 too.
6 Q. Have you ever worshipped Satan?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Have you ever observed any satanic rituals?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Have you ever participated in any satanic
11 worship services?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Have you ever practiced Wicca?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Have you ever practiced black magic?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Have you ever practiced paganism?
18 A. I have attended some pagan rituals, and I was
19 active for a while in the Dark Moon Circle. I was sort of
20 tagging after Marion while she was doing research for
21 Mists of Avalon.
22 Q. Did Moira Breen ever indicate to you that she
23 felt that she had been the victim of satanic ritual abuse?
24 A. Could you give me a time frame?
25 Q. Ever.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When?
3 A. After all of the investigation with Kenny.
4 Q. After or during?
5 A. After the investigation with Kenny started.
6 Q. Can you give me an approximate time frame when
7 you had this discussion with Moira?
8 A. I think it was while he was in the hospital,
9 with the CPS in Laguna Hills.
10 Q. Give me a month and year, please?
11 A. I don’t remember.
12 Q. Can you give me a year, please?
13 A. I think it would be 1990.
14 Q. Do you recall whether it was winter, spring,
15 summer or fall?
16 A. Not too many seasons in Southern California.
17 Q. As we know these things in the East Coast, I
18 guess.
19 A. I really don’t remember, I’m sorry.
20 Q. Were there lights on palm trees? Could you
21 please tell me what Moira Breen told you about her belief
22 that she had been a victim of satanic ritual abuse?
23 A. She said that some men in white robes tied her
24 up and hung her on the wall and poured hot coffee on her
25 and spilled, I think, spilled hot wax on her skin and
1 killed a baby in front of her and killed a grown-up in
2 front of her and gave her something to eat and told her —
3 something to eat — some funny meat and told her it was
4 her baby brother, and she has never had a baby brother.
5 She said a lot of stuff, and none of it made sense.
6 Q. Did she tell you whether she had been sexually
7 assaulted by any of those people during the satanic ritual
8 abuse?
9 A. Not that I recall.
10 Q. Did she tell you where she believed the satanic
11 ritual abuse had occurred?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you ever come to learn from any source
14 where she believed the satanic ritual occurred?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have you ever read any letters addressed to
17 Marion Zimmer Bradley from Moira Breen regarding the
18 satanic ritual abuse?
19 A. I think so. There have been so many letters.
20 It’s hard to remember them all.
21 Q. Do you open all Marion Zimmer Bradley’s mail?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How long have you been doing that?
24 A. Well, I started working for her full-time in
25 1986, and I was working for her part-time before that.
1 Q. Have you been opening her mail full-time since
2 1986?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you read all of her mail?
5 A. If it’s a personal letter from somebody she
6 knows, I will just look at the top and open the envelope
7 enough to see if it’s personal, and then I will just toss
8 it on to her.
9 Q. Have you read Moira’s letters to Marion Zimmer
10 Bradley?
11 A. Some of them. I did not routinely read
12 everything Moira wrote to Marion because that was
13 mother-daughter correspondence, not business
14 correspondence.
15 Q. Did you ever ask Marion about any of these
16 allegations of satanic ritual abuse?
17 A. I don’t remember. I might have told her that
18 Moira was saying this stuff.
19 MR. BURESH: I don’t want you to speculate
20 about what you might have done. You’re fine. For Mr.
21 Dolan’s sake, if you want to try and jog your memory and
22 pause and think about it, but please don’t say what you
23 might have done.
24 MR. DOLAN: Q. Do you have any recollection
25 whatsoever? I am entitled to know that. It doesn’t have
1 to be crystal clear.
2 A. Actually, no, I don’t recall discussing it with
3 Marion.
4 Q. Have you ever discussed the topic of satanic
5 ritual abuse with Marion?
6 A. As regards to real people or as regards to her
7 books?
8 Q. Start with real people?
9 A. With real people, no.
10 Q. Has she written any books on satanic ritual
11 abuse?
12 MR. BURESH: Wait a minute. Any books in which
13 that topic comes up? You said a book on that subject.
14 MR. DOLAN: Q. Has she ever written any books
15 where that topic is discussed or incorporated into the
16 theme?
17 A. Yes, it’s in some of her occult novels.
18 Q. What are the names of those novels?
19 A. Dark Satanic, The Inheritor, actually The
20 Inheritor — well, sort of, Witch Hill. That’s all I can
21 think of at the minute.
22 Q. Do any of those novels involve the satanic
23 ritual abuse of a young girl?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do any of them involve a young heroine who was
1 abused by satanists?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do any of them involve a young woman?
4 A. There is a character in The Inheritor named
5 Emily who is rather loosely based on Moira, in that she
6 was a music student, and a very talented one. And there
7 is a character in the book named Simon who is dating
8 Emily’s older sister, and he was an adapt, I guess, a
9 white adapt, and then he was in a car accident and injured
10 his hand. And he was a piano player, and this upset him
11 very much, and he was willing to do just about anything to
12 get the use of his hand back, so he could go back to
13 playing the piano.
14 He hypnotized Emily. He was teaching her to
15 play the harpsichord and that was part of the teaching.
16 He took her to, what sounds like a sort of
17 pseudo-Rosicrucian ritual where she just sat there. She
18 was their token virgin and was sitting under the rose,
19 whatever that means.
20 And that was all he did to Emily. What he did
21 later in the book was try to sacrifice a child who was
22 mentally defective and was one of the older sister’s
23 patients. The older sister was a therapist. And the good
24 guys came in and told him this was a really bad idea, and
25 he decided not to do it, and then smashed his hand
1 completely so that he would never be attempted to do this
2 again, so he sort of repented and returned to the light.
3 Q. Do you know when this was written?
4 MS. DURRELL: Excuse me just a second. What
5 book was this?
6 THE WITNESS: The Inheritor.
7 MR. DOLAN: The Inheritor.
8 THE WITNESS: Sometime in the 1980’s.
9 MR. DOLAN: Q. Before Ken Smith —
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. — had been identified as being molested?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And before Moira had told you about the satanic
14 ritual abuse?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you know where Marion got her research on
17 the satanic ritual abuse?
18 A. She read the Golden Bough. She read the books
19 on the order of the — I think it’s called The Order of
20 the Golden Dawn. She’s read Alisdair Crowle’s work, and
21 then I think they made a lot of it up. After all, she was
22 writing fiction.
23 Q. Do you know if there was ever any satanic
24 rituals performed at Greyhaven?
25 A. I don’t know. I don’t go to Greyhaven very
1 often. I haven’t been there in years.
2 Q. Is your answer that you don’t know if it was
3 ever practiced at Greyhaven?
4 A. To the best of my knowledge, none of the people
5 at Greyhaven are Satanists.
6 Q. The question is, do you know whether satanic
7 rituals were ever performed at Greyhaven?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You brought up an interesting issue of — and I
10 was going to do it later on. What documents did you
11 review in preparation for your deposition today?
12 A. The police report. I glanced through those
13 things from Moira.
14 Q. Don’t look to him to help you out. He’s going
15 to remain remarkably silent throughout this part of it.
16 MR. BURESH: I’m happy to — I’ll tell you what
17 I showed you. Maybe now is the time to break simply
18 because we seem to be running out of mental steam.
19 MR. DOLAN: Okay.
20 MR. BURESH: She knows what she reviewed.
21 MR. DOLAN: I just want to ask one short series
22 of questions before we break, if we can.
23 MR. BURESH: Well —
24 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you keep diaries through
25 most of the time between 1979 and 1989?
1 A. No.
2 Q. When did you start keeping a personal diary?
3 A. I don’t keep a personal diary.
4 Q. There were some diary entries that were turned
5 over to the police?
6 A. That was a police report that I wrote
7 specifically for Officer Harris.
8 Q. So those things that you were reporting,
9 writing down starting on 12, October ’89 roughly, were
10 done specifically to be handed over to the police?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you keep — did you keep any personal
13 journals whatsoever between 1979 and 1989?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you keep any items like the things that
16 were on the computer and turned over to Officer Harris,
17 just little mental thoughts, on the computer between 1979
18 and 1989?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you turn over to Officer Harris all of your
21 thoughts and notes that pertained to the molestation of
22 Ken Smith?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. BURESH: Well, just so I’m clear on the
25 question. Written or recorded thoughts and notes?
1 MR. DOLAN: Right, right.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 MR. DOLAN: Q. Have you, other than the items
4 that you turned over to Officer Harris, have you, in your
5 possession, any documents that you would have authored
6 that relate to the molestation of Ken Smith other than
7 what you have turned over to me by your attorneys?
8 A. No.
9 MR. DOLAN: We can break now and come back.
10 (Whereupon, the lunch recess was taken.)
11 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
12 MR. DOLAN: Can you give me the last question
13 and answer, please.
14 We were talking about your diaries. Never
15 mind. Or lack there of.
16 THE WITNESS: One clarification in what I was
17 reading in preparing for the deposition, when I said “the
18 police report,” I meant my portion of the police report.
19 MR. DOLAN: Q. Okay. That’s those documents
20 that you gave to the police?
21 A. Yes, not the entire report.
22 Q. Let me ask a question before we delve further.
23 There was a $57,000 loan following the divorce of Walter
24 Breen and Marion Zimmer Bradley, if I remember correctly,
25 that was part of the marital dissolution. Do you recall
1 anything pertaining to that?
2 A. I imagine that would be this was —
3 MR. BURESH: If you’re imagining then — I
4 don’t want you to imagine.
5 THE WITNESS: I’m not imagining.
6 MR. BURESH: All right.
7 THE WITNESS: Are you talking about a loan
8 where Marion owed the money to Walter?
9 MR. DOLAN: Q. Yes, and it was to be paid in
10 three equal payments through the time period 1993?
11 A. Yes, she bought out his half of the house.
12 Q. Do you know if that loan was ever paid off?
13 A. Yes, of course it was.
14 Q. The only reason I ask is I never saw
15 satisfaction of the loan in the papers that were provided
16 to me, but I saw documentation pertaining to the loan.
17 A. Oh, I see. We don’t have all the papers.
18 Heavens know where they all got to. It would be on file
19 at the courthouse.
20 Q. Is that part of the settlement agreement
21 between the lawsuit with Patrick and Marion Zimmer Bradley
22 regarding the houses at all?
23 MR. BURESH: If you know.
24 MR. DOLAN: Q. If you know.
25 A. I mean, the — wait a minute. We’re talking
1 about Marion buying out Walter’s interest in Prince
2 Street, aren’t we?
3 Q. Correct.
4 A. That had nothing to do with anything with
5 Patrick. That was part of the divorce.
6 Q. To your knowledge though, this $57,000 was paid
7 to Walter before his death?
8 A. Oh, yes.
9 Q. What year did Walter die?
10 A. 1993.
11 Q. Do you know of any documentation that exists
12 that would verify the payment of that loan?
13 A. There is on file. In the courthouse, there
14 should be the — whatever they call it. What do they call
15 it when they finally transfer?
16 Q. A quitclaim deed, or something like that?
17 A. Reconveyance. Because I remember Walter lost
18 — that’s right, Walter lost the papers, and we had to go
19 through hoops to get that reconveyance done.
20 MR. BURESH: Let me just ask a question on this
21 subject. Mr. Dolan has characterized this as a loan. To
22 your knowledge was there a loan involved?
23 THE WITNESS: Define”loan”.
24 MR. DOLAN: Q. Well, I believe you indicated
25 it was a loan, actually, not myself. I just said there
1 was $57,000. She said there was a loan between Walter and
2 — on the house which had to do with her buying the
3 interest of the house?
4 A. I think it would probably be more accurately
5 characterized as “a mortgage,” since it was secured by the
6 property. It was an exchange for his half of the house.
7 Q. Do you recall drafting the papers for that
8 mortgage, loan, whatever, do you recall?
9 A. I remember Camille LeGrand did it.
10 Q. The reason I am asking is I have, in the
11 documents that you provided to me, an interspousal
12 transfer deed dated 1990. There was also a document that
13 was the loan agreement which called for payments past the
14 1990 period that the interspousal transfer was entered.
15 I was wondering if there were any documents
16 which closed that loop and show that it actually had been
17 paid. That’s — I’ll show you these documents so that
18 you’re not relying on my representations. Do you have the
19 note? What date do you have on the quitclaim deed there?
20 A. September 17th, 1985. Oh, this is the other
21 property. This October 17th, 1985, is the 3031 Fulton
22 property.
23 Q. Okay. But looking at the February 9, 1990,
24 document for the interspousal transfer deed, can you tell
25 me which property that relates to?
1 A. That would be 2221 Prince.
2 Q. And that part of the deed was conveyed in 1990,
3 correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was that the deed that you were talking about
6 there was some difficulty in filing, or is there another
7 deed?
8 A. There may be another deed. There were so many
9 of them. I just remember there was one where Walter was
10 supposed to have the papers, and Walter lost the papers.
11 Q. There was a note secured by a deed of trust
12 that was provided to me that I’ll show you now, which is
13 — we can mark as Plaintiff’s 1 to this deposition.
14 (Whereupon, Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 1 was
15 marked for identification.)
16 THE WITNESS: I think what happened was that
17 this one was paid off early, but I would have to go back
18 to the bank to get checks or canceled checks or copies of
19 checks or whatever.
20 MR. DOLAN: Q. Do you know when Walter Breen
21 died in 1993?
22 A. April, toward the end of April.
23 Q. Do you know if any documentation exists that
24 shows that note, Plaintiff’s Exhibit 1, was satisfied?
25 A. There must be some somewhere.
1 Q. Okay. Do you know if the note was paid
2 directly to Walter, was it paid to somebody who had power
3 of attorney, or was it paid to his estate; do you recall?
4 A. Well, it can’t have been paid to his estate
5 because it was paid before he died. To the best of my
6 memory, and I can not swear absolutely to the truthfulness
7 of this, what tended to happen is that Marion and Walter,
8 if they were lending each other money, would write up a
9 note, and as soon as the money came in they would pay it
10 off, so this was probably paid off way early, and,
11 therefore, would have been — let’s see, when was Walter
12 arrested in ’91?
13 Q. He appears to have been arrested in —
14 according to the police reports here, roughly in August of
15 1991.
16 A. That sounds right. So if it was paid off
17 before then, it would have been paid directly to Walter.
18 After he was arrested, he gave his power of attorney to
19 his son, Patrick.
20 MR. BURESH: Are you talking about the Los
21 Angeles arrest?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, one that put him in jail and
23 prevented him from managing his own affairs.
24 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever hold power of
25 attorney for Walter after his arrest in Los Angeles
1 County?
2 A. I never held power of attorney for Walter at
3 all.
4 Q. Were you ever an owner of the property in which
5 Walter Breen resided?
6 A. Which one?
7 Q. Are you an owner of any of the properties
8 either on Prince Street or Fulton Street?
9 A. At present — wait a minute. Let’s get a time
10 period here. Are you asking if I was an owner of 3031
11 Fulton or 2221 Prince?
12 Q. Let me ask you this question: Prior to 1989,
13 were you an owner on any of the properties, either 2221
14 Prince Street or Fulton Street?
15 A. I was a part owner of 3031 Fulton.
16 Q. And that’s where Walter Breen was residing?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And what time were you a part owner of 3031
19 Fulton Street?
20 A. From the time we purchased it until, I believe,
21 the summer of 1990.
22 Q. When did you purchase it?
23 A. It was just on here. October 17th, 1985.
24 Q. Who purchased the — that’s the goldfish bowl,
25 correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who was it that was actually involved in the
3 purchase of the goldfish bowl?
4 A. Well, Marion’s CPA, Janette Burke, was the one
5 whose idea it was, and she thought Marion should get into
6 real estate, and Marion and I bought it jointly with
7 Marion holding an 80-percent share and me holding a
8 20-percent share, and Camille LeGrand did the agreement
9 for that.
10 Q. Was title ever in your name, do you know?
11 A. You mean when it was bought, yes.
12 Q. The deed?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is it your testimony that through some time in
15 1990 you remained a part owner of the property on Fulton
16 Street?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I am going to show you what we’ll marked now as
19 Plaintiff’s Exhibit 2.
20 (Whereupon, Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 2 was
21 marked for identification.)
22 MR. DOLAN: Q. Which was a document, I believe
23 you looked at, and I’m identifying the 1985 time frame
24 when you purchased the property; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know what this document was designed to
2 accomplish, this quitclaim deed, why it was drafted?
3 A. Because Marion and Walter, though both
4 separated, were still legally married, and so Walter would
5 not have a claim on the property.
6 Q. And that was when; when was that drafted?
7 A. 1985.
8 Q. Does your name appear anywhere on that
9 document?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you have any understanding as to why your
12 name was not included on the document if you were a part
13 owner?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. But to your knowledge, you were a part
16 owner on the property between 1985 and 1989, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And that was the time period wherein Walter
19 Breen was residing at that property, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I’m going to show you a document that we are
22 going to mark as Plaintiff’s 3, which is a rental
23 agreement.
24 (Whereupon, Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 3 was
25 marked for identification.)
1 MR. BURESH: Do you know what exhibit number
2 that was?
3 MR. DOLAN: You don’t have them numbered. Oh,
4 in what category it comes, yes. Exhibit No. 22.
5 Q. Have you ever seen Plaintiff’s Exhibit 3
6 before?
7 A. Yes, of course, that’s my signature on it.
8 Q. That was my next question. Did you indeed sign
9 that document?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you rent the property that you were part
12 owner of to Walter Breen in 1986?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. At the time that you rented the property to
15 Walter Breen in 1986, were you aware that he had authored
16 the book Greek Love?
17 A. I don’t remember.
18 Q. The time that you rented the property to Walter
19 Breen in 1986, were you aware of the allegation that had
20 been made against him by Barry?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. At the time that you rented this property to
23 Walter Breen in 1986, were you aware of the allegation
24 that had been raised against Walter regarding his
25 molestation of [Victim X]?
1 A. I don’t believe so.
2 Q. At the time that you rented this property to
3 Walter Breen in 1986, were you aware that Walter Breen had
4 been the subject of some controversy at the WorldCon
5 regarding the molestation of a child?
6 A. No.
7 Q. At the time that you rented the property to
8 Walter Breen in 1986, were you aware of any allegations
9 against him that he had molested his own children?
10 A. No.
11 Q. At the time that you rented the property to
12 Walter Breen in 1986, were you aware in any way about
13 Walter Breen’s beliefs concerning sex between men and
14 children?
15 A. No, I don’t really think so.
16 Q. I want you not to guess or speculate. To
17 remember if you can give me your best testimony as to
18 whether or not at that point in time you had any knowledge
19 whatsoever regarding Walter Breen’s idealogies concerning
20 sex between men and boys at the time that you rented him
21 this property in 1986.
22 A. Well, I think at this point I knew he had
23 written Greek Love, but I wasn’t sure. I didn’t know
24 exactly what the book was about.
25 Q. Did you have any understanding, even though you
1 weren’t sure exactly what it was about, did you have any
2 understanding as to whether or not the subject matter of
3 that book involved relations between men and young boys?
4 A. I understood it involved relations between men
5 and young boys in ancient Greece.
6 Q. At that time, did you have any understanding as
7 to why Walter had written that book?
8 A. No.
9 Q. At this point —
10 A. For money, I suppose.
11 MR. BURESH: Don’t guess, please.
12 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
13 MR. DOLAN: Q. At that time, did you have any
14 understanding whatsoever regarding Walter Breen’s idealogy
15 on the age of consensual sex between people?
16 A. I’m sorry, would you rephrase the question?
17 Q. At that time in 1986, did you have any
18 understanding as to what Walter Breen’s beliefs were
19 regarding the age of consensual sex between people?
20 A. I think I may have heard him say that he
21 thought the age of consent should be lower than 18.
22 Q. Did you ever ask him what age he thought it
23 should be lowered to?
24 A. No, I told him I didn’t agree with him.
25 Q. So prior to renting the property to Walter
1 Breen, you had heard him say that he believed that he
2 thought the age should be lowered below 18?
3 A. Yes, I believe so.
4 Q. Did you have any further discussions with him
5 on that issue at any time prior to renting him the
6 property in 1986?
7 A. I don’t think I had a discussion with him on
8 the issue. I think I heard him arguing with Marion about
9 it.
10 Q. Okay. Can you tell me what you can recall
11 about his argument with Marion on the issue of the age of
12 consent being lowered below the age of 18?
13 A. I think he said something vaguely sympathetic
14 about NAMBLA, and Marion said — N-a-m-b-l-a — and Marion
15 said that you were always seeing dirty old men march for
16 the right to have sex with young boys, but you certainly
17 didn’t see young boys marching for the right to have sex
18 with dirty old men. She was very cross with him.
19 Q. Do you recall anything else that transpired
20 during that conversation between Walter and Marion?
21 A. Well, no, that’s sort of ended the
22 conversation. Walter didn’t — doesn’t —
23 MR. BURESH: You have answered the question,
24 I’m sorry.
25 MR. DOLAN: Q. Do you know how the subject came
1 up between the two of them?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you ever know Walter to be a member of
4 NAMBLA?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you ever know Walter to be a member of the
7 Mattachaine Society?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Was Marion ever a member of NAMBLA?
10 A. To the best my knowledge, no.
11 Q. Was Marion ever a member of the Mattachaine
12 Society?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you ever been a member or supporter
15 NAMBLA?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Have you ever been a member or supporter of the
18 Mattachaine Society?
19 A. I don’t know what the Mattachaine Society is,
20 and, no.
21 MR. BURESH: Let’s go off the record one
22 second.
23 (Discussion off the record.)
24 MR. DOLAN: Q. Have you, at any time, come to
25 learn that Walter may have been a member of NAMBLA?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Have you ever heard of a journal called One?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Have you ever —
5 A. Sorry. It was in the interrogatories, but
6 prior to that, no.
7 Q. Have you ever heard of a journal called Two?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Were you ever aware of Walter giving any
10 interviews under the name of J.Z. Eglinton?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Have you ever read any interviews regarding
13 Walter’s authoring of the book Greek Love?
14 A. I think I may have seen one once.
15 Q. I am going to show you a document that we are
16 going to mark as Plaintiff’s next in order, which will be
17 Plaintiff’s No. 4.
18 (Whereupon, Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 4 was
19 marked for identification.
20 MR. DOLAN: Q. I’m going to ask you — it’s a
21 two-page exhibit.
22 (Discussion off the record.)
23 MR. DOLAN: Q. It is a document entitled An
24 Interview with J.Z. Eglinton, E-g-l-i-n-t-o-n, by Martin
25 Denison, D-e-n-i-s-o-n. I have highlighted two portions
1 on it which were not highlighted at the time that it was
2 originally generated, and I will be happy to make a
3 photocopy without these for introduction in the record if
4 counsel has any objection to it, but this is the only copy
5 I currently have with me.
6 I’m going to ask if you have ever seen that
7 document before?
8 A. It looks vaguely familiar. I may have.
9 Q. Do you recall when you may have seen that
10 document before?
11 A. Probably in ’89 with all the rest of the stuff.
12 Q. This document — strike that.
13 Do you know if Marion Zimmer Bradley had read
14 Greek Love?
15 A. I think she read parts of it. I don’t know
16 that she had read the whole thing.
17 Q. Were you aware that Greek Love was dedicated to
18 Marion Zimmer Bradley?
19 A. Not until I found a copy for Officer Harris.
20 Q. Do you know if Marion Zimmer Bradley was aware
21 that book had been dedicated to her?
22 A. I don’t know.
23 Q. Marion Zimmer Bradley was an owner of the
24 property rented to Walter; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know if Marion Zimmer Bradley had read
2 the book Greek Love prior to renting the property to
3 Walter Breen?
4 A. You’re asking do I know for sure?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. I don’t know for sure, no.
7 Q. Prior to renting the property to Walter Breen,
8 is it correct that you and Marion Zimmer Bradley had
9 discussed the letter that had been sent to Dr. Morin?
10 A. As I mentioned earlier, I had asked her about
11 this in 1980, and by then we had long since forgotten
12 about it.
13 Q. I move to strike as nonresponsive.
14 The question was, prior to renting the property
15 in 1986, had you and Marion discussed the letter sent to
16 Dr. Morin?
17 MR. BURESH: I’m going to object to the
18 question as being asked and answered. She has all ready
19 testified to the best of her knowledge of when that took
20 place, and now you’re asking her to reference a point in
21 time, and you’re asking her the same question over again.
22 I suggest you go back in the record and look at
23 her testimony then, but you’re now asking the same
24 question over again.
25 MR. DOLAN: I’ll ask a different question.
1 Q. At the time that you rented this property to
2 Walter Breen, you knew that he had written a letter to Dr.
3 Morin, correct?
4 A. I had long since forgotten about it.
5 Q. But you had knowledge of that letter prior to
6 renting the property to Walter Breen, correct?
7 A. I had had knowledge of it, yes.
8 Q. And so had Marion Zimmer Bradley, correct?
9 A. Assuming she was listening to me when I talked
10 to her, yes.
11 Q. Well, she had actually responded to you then?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So can you draw a conclusion as to whether or
14 not she was listening to you?
15 MR. BURESH: Object to the question. Instruct
16 the witness not to answer. Go on to the next question.
17 MR. DOLAN: Q. Well, do you have any facts at
18 your disposal as to whether or not Marion Zimmer Bradley
19 was listening to you at the time that you told her about
20 Dr. Morin’s letter?
21 MR. BURESH: Asked and answered.
22 MR. DOLAN: Q. You can answer.
23 MR. BURESH: I instruct the witness not to.
24 MR. DOLAN: She’s now saying she doesn’t know
25 whether or not —
1 MR. BURESH: She said she presumed that she
2 did, and she has already testified what she said that was
3 a response. You’re badgering the witness. Instruct the
4 witness not to answer.
5 MR. DOLAN: Mark it.
6 (Whereupon, the previous question was marked
7 for the record.)
8 MR. DOLAN: Q. So prior to renting this
9 property to Walter Breen, do you have any facts at your
10 disposal as to whether Marion Zimmer Bradley knew that
11 Walter had written the letter to Dr. Morin that we
12 discussed earlier?
13 MR. BURESH: Objection. Instruct the witness
14 not to answer.
15 MR. DOLAN: On what grounds?
16 MR. BURESH: Asked and answered.
17 MR. DOLAN: I’m asking a different question. I
18 never asked this question of her. I did ask a different
19 question that may identify the space in time, but I am
20 entitled to ask a different question that relates it to
21 another item. I have never asked her that question
22 before, Mr. Buresh, and you’ll find it’s not in the
23 record.
24 MR. BURESH: That’s fine. We can talk to the
25 judge about it.
1 MR. DOLAN: Mark it, please.
2 (Whereupon, the previous question was marked
3 for the record.)
4 MR. DOLAN: Q. Prior to renting this property
5 from Walter Breen, did Marion Zimmer Bradley know that
6 Barry had been found in Walter’s bed?
7 MR. BURESH: Objection, asked and answered.
8 You already talked about the time frame of Marion Zimmer
9 Bradley’s knowledge of that, and you’re asking her the
10 same question again. I instruct the witness not to
11 answer.
12 MR. DOLAN: Mark it.
13 (Whereupon, the previous question was marked
14 for the record.)
15 MR. DOLAN: Q. Prior to the renting of the
16 property by Marion Zimmer Bradley to Walter Breen, do you
17 have any facts at your disposal to know that — strike
18 that.
19 Prior to Marion Zimmer Bradley renting this
20 property to Walter Breen, do you have any facts at your
21 disposal which would indicate to you that she had known
22 Walter had been accused of child molestation?
23 MR. BURESH: Other than what she has already
24 testified to?
25 MR. DOLAN: No.
1 MR. BURESH: Then I object to the question as
2 being asked and answered, and I instruct her not to
3 answer.
4 MR. DOLAN: Mark it.
5 (Whereupon, the previous question was marked
6 for the record.)
7 MR. DOLAN: Q. Do you have any knowledge as to
8 whether or not Marion Zimmer Bradley knew that Walter
9 Breen had been accused of child molestation prior to
10 renting this property to him in 1989?
11 MR. BURESH: Same objection, same instruction.
12 MR. DOLAN: Mark this.
13 (Whereupon, the previous question was marked
14 for the record.)
15 MR. DOLAN: You’re not allowing me to ask her
16 that whether prior to renting the property, which is the
17 issue of this litigation, the question of whether the
18 woman who rented it to him knew that the man that she was
19 renting it to was accused of child molestation; you’re not
20 allowing me to ask that.
21 MR. BURESH: This morning, in great detail, we
22 went all through of these instances of what Marion might
23 have known and what she knew, and you asked the witness
24 many questions about the time frame of when this knowledge
25 might have been obtained, and now you’re taking one point
1 in time, this 1986, and you’re asking her the same series
2 of questions all over again. That’s asked and answered.
3 MR. DOLAN: It is relevant to an issue directly
4 at issue in this litigation as to whether she rented her
5 property to someone she knew had been accused of
6 pedophilia.
7 MR. BURESH: I agree with that.
8 MR. DOLAN: And I’m entitled to ask that
9 question in the way I want to ask it. It is a different
10 question than on this date did she know this, on that date
11 did she know that. I am asking in 1986, did she know
12 this.
13 MR. BURESH: I respectfully disagree with your
14 analysis, and we’ll have to let somebody else decide this
15 issue.
16 MR. DOLAN: And what is the reason for your
17 instructing her not to?
18 MR. BURESH: What I have already said, asked
19 and answered.
20 MR. DOLAN: That question has never been asked
21 and the record will show that. Different questions may
22 have been asked.
23 Mr. Buresh, you know I’m entitled to ask
24 different questions of her.
25 MR. BURESH: You asked the same question in a
1 different form.
2 MR. DOLAN: I have never asked her in 1986.
3 MR. BURESH: You can do the same thing with
4 1987, 1988. You can put any date in the calendar and ask
5 her the same questions all over again.
6 MR. DOLAN: This is a definitely important
7 point in time.
8 Q. Prior to this point in time in 1986, did you
9 know that Walter Breen had been accused of child
10 molestation?
11 MR. BURESH: Same objection, same instruction.
12 MR. DOLAN: Mark it.
13 (Whereupon, the previous question was marked
14 for the record.)
15 MR. BURESH: Why don’t we just have a
16 continuing objection to this, and we’ll have to take this
17 to the judge.
18 MR. DOLAN: Ultimately we are. I am just going
19 to make sure that the record is very clear that you’re
20 telling me that I have asked these questions before, and
21 the judge can see how I’m being obstructed from inquiring
22 on a very important point. That’s why I am making the
23 record here.
24 I understand that you’re not going to let her
25 answer the question, but I am entitled to continue to try
1 and make it different.
2 MR. BURESH: Well, what I would like you to do
3 is categorize the question so that we can take it to the
4 judge that you want to use this point in time to ask the
5 same questions you were asking before about knowledge of
6 his propensities.
7 MR. DOLAN: Well, I’m not going to categorize
8 it that way. That’s the way you would like it
9 categorized. My questions are on the record.
10 Q. Why did you rent a property to a gentleman you
11 knew had been accused of child molestation?
12 MR. BURESH: I will object to that question.
13 Instruct the witness not to answer.
14 MR. DOLAN: On what basis?
15 MR. BURESH: It’s lacking foundation, assumes
16 facts not in evidence and it’s argumentative.
17 MR. DOLAN: You have just told me I can’t ask
18 her if she knew this man had been accused of child
19 molestation prior to February 1986. You’re now telling me
20 I can’t ask her why because I have already asked her and
21 she’s answered?
22 MR. BURESH: You don’t need to pound the table,
23 Chris.
24 MR. DOLAN: Well, I’m getting frustrated.
25 MR. BURESH: I know you are.
1 MR. DOLAN: And I have asked her, and you said
2 it’s asked and answered that she knew that he was a child
3 molester — had been accused of child molestation prior to
4 this. Now I’m asking her, why did you rent property to
5 him if you knew that he had been accused of child
6 molestation?
7 MR. BURESH: Argumentative, instruct the
8 witness not to answer.
9 MR. DOLAN: Q. Prior to renting the property
10 to Walter Breen, did you know that he had been accused of
11 child molestation?
12 MR. BURESH: Don’t answer the question.
13 MR. DOLAN: Q. Why did you rent this property
14 to Walter Breen if you had knowledge that he had been
15 accused of child molestation?
16 MR. BURESH: Objection, argumentative.
17 Instruct the witness not to answer.
18 MR. DOLAN: Argumentative is not a reason to
19 instruct not to answer, and we can break now, because I’m
20 going to go find you the law, and I’ll show you the only
21 reasons you’re allowed to instruct someone not to answer.
22 Argumentative is not one of them.
23 I just want to make sure it’s clear on the
24 record that this is becoming obstructive.
25 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.)
1 MR. DOLAN: Q. Prior to renting the property
2 to Walter Breen, did you and Marion Zimmer Bradley discuss
3 his fitness as a tenant?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Prior to renting the property to Walter Breen,
6 did you and Marion Zimmer Bradley in any way discuss any
7 allegations of Walter being a child molester?
8 A. No.
9 Q. At the time that you rented the property to
10 Walter Breen, did you have any concerns about renting the
11 property to a gentleman who was — who had been accused of
12 child molestation?
13 MR. BURESH: Same objection, same instruction.
14 MR. DOLAN: What was the objection?
15 MR. BURESH: Same objection.
16 MR. DOLAN: I don’t know what it is though.
17 MR. BURESH: It’s the one I made to the same —
18 MR. DOLAN: Is it asked and answered? I never
19 asked her if she had any concerns about renting to an
20 alleged child molester.
21 MR. BURESH: Well, it’s the same question in a
22 different form. You asked what her suspicions were, what
23 her predilections were, and now you’re picking this date,
24 which I understand is a significant date from your
25 standpoint. It’s the same series of questions, and I
1 think we are just beating a dead horse here because we are
2 going in front of a judge, and the judge is going to
3 decide this issue.
4 MR. DOLAN: Mark it, please.
5 (Whereupon, the previous question was marked
6 for the record.)
7 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you interview any other
8 possible tenants for the goldfish bowl location that was
9 ultimately rented to Walter Breen?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you interview Walter Breen for the
12 residence as a tenant?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did anyone object to Walter Breen being rented
15 that premises prior to the time that Ken Smith was
16 reported as being molested, and not making that pregnant
17 with the fact that someone may have objected to it at that
18 time?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you ever hear any rumors of Walter Breen’s
21 molesting of any children other than the ones that have
22 been previously identified in this deposition today?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Have you, since this all came out with Kenny
25 Smith, been made aware of any other allegations of
1 Walter’s molestation of children other than Ken Smith, the
2 young boy down in L.A., Barry — I believe you referenced
3 Sterling, and [Victim X]?
4 MR. BURESH: Let me have the question again.
5 (Whereupon, the record was read by the
6 reporter.)
7 THE WITNESS: Moira was instantly convinced
8 that Walter had molested every child he had ever been
9 near, so to that extent, yes, I have heard other
10 allegations.
11 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did any parents, prior to the
12 molestation of Ken Smith, every tell you that they
13 wouldn’t let their child stay over at the house unless you
14 or Marion were there?
15 MR. BURESH: I’ve got to hear that one again.
16 I’m sorry.
17 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did any parents, prior to the
18 molestation of Ken Smith, ever tell you that they did not
19 want their child staying over at the house unless you and
20 Marion were there?
21 MR. BURESH: This is calling for statements
22 made by parents to you.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 MS. DURRELL: And the time frame on this is
25 confusing.
1 MR. DOLAN: Q. Prior to the molestation of Ken
2 Smith?
3 A. It wasn’t me and Marion. It was me or Marion.
4 Tracy said that she didn’t want the kids from Greyhaven
5 staying over there unless Marion or I was there because
6 she didn’t consider Walter grown up enough to take care of
7 children on his own.
8 Q. Did she have a son, Tracy?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Was Ian related to her in some way, Ian
11 Studbaker?
12 A. He’s her husband’s bastard.
13 Q. So it is her husband’s son?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did Tracy ever tell you that she didn’t want
16 Ian — you or Marion as you put it — staying at the house
17 until you or Marion were there?
18 A. No, she wasn’t talking about Ian. She was
19 talking about Fiona. She let me and my boyfriend Philip
20 have a slumber party for Fiona and a few of her friends,
21 but she wouldn’t have let Walter do it.
22 Q. Did any parent, prior to the molestation of Ken
23 Smith, ever express any reservation about having their
24 child at Prince Street for any reason that you’re aware
25 of?
1 MS. DURRELL: Excuse me, Chris, you keep
2 saying, “prior to the molestation.”
3 MR. DOLAN: Prior to the identification of —
4 prior to the ’89?
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. So prior to the date of ’89 that Ken Smith’s
7 molestation was reported?
8 A. No, Tracy was the only one.
9 Q. Did Tracy ever discuss with you any allegation
10 of molestation of her son, Ian, or the bastard son of her
11 husband, Ian?
12 A. Call him her nephew. You see — let’s see.
13 Tracy is married to Paul. Diana is married to Don. Don
14 and Paul are foster brothers, and on Ian’s birth
15 certificate it says he is Diana and Don’s. It’s just
16 biologically he’s Paul’s, so nephew will do.
17 What was the question?
18 Q. Did Tracy ever tell you that she had any
19 concerns about Walter’s interaction with Ian?
20 A. No, she did not.
21 Q. Did Diana ever talk to you about my concerns
22 she had about Walter’s interaction with Ian?
23 A. No.
24 Q. To this day are you aware of any allegations
25 that Walter may have molested Ian?
1 A. Moira said that Tracy said that she heard Ian
2 say once, “Don’t touch me there, that tickles.”
3 Q. Do you know if Walter ever had any overnight
4 guests who were underage children at the property you
5 rented him?
6 A. I believe that Mary Mason sent Ken to stay with
7 him.
8 Q. Okay. Any others that you’re aware of?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Are you aware of whether Walter was
11 entertaining any young men under the age of 18 in the home
12 that you rented to him other than Ken Smith from the time
13 period 1985 through the report of Ken Smith’s molestation
14 in 1989?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you ever find Walter Breen in a room alone
17 with a young boy at Green Walls at the time between 1985
18 and 1989?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you know that Ken Smith was staying alone
21 with Walter Breen at Green Walls between 1985 and 1989?
22 A. He wasn’t.
23 Q. Who was there?
24 A. Marion and I lived at Green Walls.
25 MR. BURESH: You mean the goldfish bowl?
1 MR. DOLAN: Q. I’m sorry. The goldfish bowl?
2 A. Well, I don’t think he would have been alone.
3 Moira and whatever boyfriend she was living with then
4 would have been there.
5 Q. Were you aware at the time that Ken Smith was
6 staying at the residence rented to Walter between 1985 and
7 1989, that Ken Smith was staying there?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you ever see Ken Smith on the property at
10 the goldfish bowl?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you ever see Ken Smith on the property at
13 Green Walls, which is the Prince Street address?
14 A. To the best of my recollection, no.
15 Q. Do you know if Ken Smith and Walter ever used
16 the hot tub at the Prince Street address?
17 A. I do not remember their ever doing so, but it’s
18 quite possible that they did.
19 Q. Let’s sort of switch gears here. When did you
20 first meet Mary Mason?
21 A. At the WorldCon in Boston in 1989.
22 Q. Is it your testimony that you never spoke with
23 Mary Mason prior to WorldCon in Boston in 1989?
24 A. I believe I phoned her in July to tell her the
25 police wanted to talk to Kenny.
1 Q. Prior to the report of molestation of Ken
2 Smith, did you ever talk to Mary Mason?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you know who Mary Mason was prior to the
5 report of the Ken Smith molestation in 1989?
6 A. Not that I recall.
7 Q. Had you ever talked to Ken Smith at all prior
8 to the molestation — the report of molestation in 1989?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Had you ever seen Ken Smith at any science
11 fiction conventions prior to 1989 when his molestation was
12 reported?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Had Ken Smith ever assisted you in any of the
15 MZB Enterprises prior to his report of molestation in 1989
16 that you’re aware of?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you know if Ken Smith had ever occupied any
19 of the hotel rooms which were rented by MZB Enterprises at
20 any time prior to his molestation in 1989?
21 A. MZB Enterprises didn’t rent hotel rooms.
22 Q. Okay.
23 MR. BURESH: Listen to the question.
24 MR. DOLAN: Q. Okay, were there hotel rooms
25 rented for the different conferences for the employees of
1 Marion Zimmer Bradley or Marion Zimmer Bradley
2 Enterprises, whatever they were?
3 MR. BURESH: By Marion Zimmer Bradley
4 Enterprises?
5 MR. DOLAN: Q. By Marion Zimmer Bradley or
6 Marion Zimmer Bradley Enterprises?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you pay for Walter’s hotel rooms at these
9 conferences?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you have an employment agreement with
12 Walter?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Let’s mark this as Plaintiff’s next in order.
15 (Whereupon, Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 5 was
16 marked for identification.)
17 MR. DOLAN: Q. It comes out of your Exhibit
18 No. 23. It’s a two-page exhibit called, “Employment
19 Agreement.”
20 Q. Do you know who drafted this employment
21 agreement marked as Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 5?
22 A. I’m sorry, was that a question?
23 Q. Do you know who drafted this agreement that has
24 been marked as Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 5?
25 A. I did. I copied it from his previous
1 employment exhibit with First Coin Investors, pretty much.
2 Q. And do you see on the second page of that where
3 it talks about expenses for travel?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you reimburse Walter for expenses for
6 travel that were involved with the MZB Enterprises?
7 A. No, because those weren’t business travel.
8 When we’re talking about travel here, we are talking about
9 numismatic travel.
10 Q. So Walter’s attendance at coin shows — I mean,
11 at science fiction fairs was not something that was part
12 of his business?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. So is it your testimony that prior to 1989, the
15 time in 1989 that he was reported for the molestation of
16 Ken Smith, his job duties did not include attendance at
17 science fiction or fantasy conventions?
18 A. That is correct.
19 MR. DOLAN: Let’s mark this as Plaintiff’s next
20 in order.
21 (Whereupon, Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 6 was
22 marked for identification.)
23 MR. DOLAN: It has highlight markings on it.
24 If you have —
25 MR. BURESH: A clean copy.
1 MR. DOLAN: Yeah.
2 MR. BURESH: Give me the number again.
3 MR. DOLAN: Exhibit 11.
4 MR. BURESH: What is it, a letter from Walter?
5 MR. DOLAN: To Walter. We’ll make a copy and
6 give you one back.
7 MR. BURESH: I don’t think I have it in this
8 one.
9 MR. DOLAN: 15 November ’89.
10 MR. BURESH: Is it after the employment
11 agreement?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 MR. DOLAN: Yes. And after the will.
14 We’ll make a clean copy.
15 Q. I’m going to show you what’s been marked as
16 Plaintiff’s 6 and ask you if you drafted that document?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you send that document to Walter?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. If Walter’s duties did not include attendance
21 at science fiction or fantasy conventions as part of his
22 employment, why did you send him a letter in November of
23 1989 telling him that his duties no longer include
24 traveling to science fiction conventions?
25 MR. BURESH: Well, it doesn’t say that.
1 THE WITNESS: It doesn’t say “no longer.” It
2 says,” do not include”. It’s clarifying that point to
3 make it absolutely clear.
4 MR. DOLAN: Q. It says, “Therefore, effective
5 immediately and until further notice, your job duties do
6 not include attendance at any science fiction or fantasy
7 convention.”
8 MR. BURESH: The question is argumentative and
9 misstates the record.
10 MR. DOLAN: I haven’t asked a question yet.
11 Q. Why did you send this letter to Walter Breen
12 telling him that effective immediately his job duties did
13 not include traveling to science fiction and fantasy
14 conventions if, indeed, his job duties never included
15 those?
16 MR. BURESH: I’m going to object to the
17 question. It assumes facts not in evidence and misstates
18 the record.
19 The duties as stated on the employment
20 agreement, Exhibit 5 says, “Employee shall update the
21 Darkover Concordance, work on the magazine as requested,
22 and undertake other projects as assigned. These may
23 include numismatic work, as long as such work does not
24 involve numerical grading of coins.”
25 MR. DOLAN: What is the objection?
1 THE WITNESS: Actually, his duties did not
2 involve travel at all.
3 MR. DOLAN: Q. Then what was the need for
4 sending the letter in November of 1989 telling him that
5 effective immediately, and until further notice, your job
6 duties do not include attendance at any science fiction or
7 fantasy conventions?
8 MR. BURESH: Objection, assumes that there was
9 a need.
10 MR. DOLAN: Q. You can answer.
11 MR. BURESH: If you want to explain to him why.
12 MR. DOLAN: Scott, please.
13 THE WITNESS: Camille LeGrand suggested that we
14 do this just to make the paper trail absolutely clean. To
15 make it very clear that he was not attending conventions
16 as our employee.
17 MR. DOLAN: Q. Had Walter ever attended a
18 convention as your employee?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Had Walter ever facilitated the business of the
21 MZB Enterprises at any time during the science fiction
22 conventions?
23 A. You mean, like sat at a dealer’s table or
24 something?
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. Not to my knowledge.
2 Q. Had he ever helped move boxes of books or
3 anything like that?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did Walter in any way during any of these
6 science fiction conventions represent MZB Enterprises?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you know if during his discussion — did
9 Walter ever appear on any panels?
10 MS. DURRELL: I’m going to object. That’s
11 vague and ambiguous. I don’t understand that question.
12 MR. DOLAN: Q. During the science fiction or
13 fantasy conventions that Walter attended, do you know if
14 he ever sat on any panels where he spoke to audiences?
15 A. I don’t know.
16 Q. Did you ever?
17 A. He may have. I don’t know.
18 Q. Did you ever listen to Walter talk to any
19 audiences?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did Walter stay in the same room with the rest
22 of the people who were employees of Marion Zimmer Bradley
23 at these conventions?
24 MR. BURESH: Sleeping in the room?
25 MR. DOLAN: Same room — let me ask this
1 question.
2 Q. Would the family often rent a suite of
3 rooms when you went to these conventions?
4 A. No, we all had individual rooms.
5 Q. Did Walter and Marion ever share a room at
6 these conventions?
7 A. Not as late as this. Probably they did when
8 they were first married.
9 Q. Do you know from the time period 1985 to 1989
10 whether Walter and Marion ever shared a room at a science
11 fiction convention?
12 A. I don’t know.
13 Q. Do you know if at any time during 1985 to 1989,
14 Walter and Marion had continuous rooms, room that were
15 connected in any way at the science fiction and fantasy
16 convention?
17 A. No, if they weren’t sharing a room, there is no
18 reason they would have had adjoining rooms.
19 Q. The questions is, do you know?
20 A. No, I do not know.
21 Q. Why did you write here in this letter — well,
22 you spoke to Camille LeGrand before writing this letter,
23 correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What did Camille LeGrand tell you about the
1 writing of this letter?
2 MR. BURESH: I’m going to object to the
3 question. It invades the attorney/client privilege.
4 Instruct the witness not to answer.
5 MR. DOLAN: That has been waived. It says, “I
6 have talked to our lawyer, Camille LeGrand, yesterday
7 regarding liability of MZB Enterprises for your behavior
8 at any conventions or shows you attended. She informs me
9 that MZB Enterprises is not responsible,” and she goes on
10 to indicate what they talked about.
11 MR. BURESH: I don’t consider that to be a
12 waiver of the privilege.
13 MR. DOLAN: Mark it please.
14 (Whereupon, the previous question was marked
15 for the record.)
16 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did Camille LeGrand, quote,
17 “inform you the MZB Enterprises is not responsible for
18 anything that Walter had already done”?
19 MR. BURESH: Same objection, same instruction
20 as to all communication between Camille LeGrand and this
21 witness.
22 MR. DOLAN: Mark it.
23 (Whereupon, the previous question was marked
24 for the record.)
25 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did someone inform you that
1 once you had good reason to believe that Walter was
2 capable of violating the law in the course of his
3 association with children you meet at the functions, that
4 MZB Enterprises could be liable for future behavior in any
5 situation in which he was acting as your employee?
6 MR. BURESH: Let me hear the question again,
7 please.
8 (Whereupon, the record was read by the
9 reporter.)
10 MR. BURESH: The same objection, same
11 instruction.
12 MR. DOLAN: Q. I’m not asking what any lawyer
13 told you. I’m asking, did anyone ever tell you that?
14 MR. BURESH: In the context of this letter,
15 same objection, same instruction.
16 MR. DOLAN: I’m not asking her the context of
17 this letter.
18 Q. I am just asking, did anyone ever tell you that
19 MZB Enterprises could be held liable for the actions of
20 Walter Breen once you knew that he might be molesting
21 children?
22 MR. BURESH: Same objection, same instruction.
23 It’s not reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of
24 admissible evidence.
25 MR. DOLAN: Certainly, there may be a claim if
1 he was involved somehow in the molestation of children as
2 an employee.
3 MR. BURESH: What somebody told her about that
4 is of no relevance. Same instruction, same objection.
5 MR. DOLAN: I just want to make sure I
6 understand for the record, please, which objections are
7 you making, attorney-client privilege, or you just don’t
8 want her to answer?
9 MR. BURESH: Attorney-client privilege, and
10 also all the objections that I just got through stating,
11 which is not reasonably calculated to lead to the
12 discovery of admissible evidence.
13 MR. DOLAN: Q. At the time you wrote this
14 letter, were you aware that Marion Zimmer Bradley
15 Enterprises could be held liable for the activities of
16 Walter Breen if he were to molest someone after the
17 allegations had been raised regarding Ken Smith?
18 MR. BURESH: Object to the question assumes
19 facts not in evidence and calls for a legal conclusion.
20 You’re grilling her on the law here.
21 MR. DOLAN: No, I’m not. I’m asking her if she
22 had knowledge or awareness. I’m not asking her the status
23 of the law.
24 MR. BURESH: Her own knowledge or awareness of
25 potential vicarious liability is of no meaning in this
1 case. Either they’re vicariously liable according to what
2 the law is or they’re not. Her understanding —
3 MR. DOLAN: This isn’t a proper objection,
4 Scott. A proper objection is foundation, the form of the
5 question or attorney-client privilege, but this colloquy
6 is not appropriate, and I will ask you please to refrain
7 from doing it. If you’re going to instruct her not to
8 answer, go ahead and do that.
9 MR. BURESH: I have, and now you started the
10 colloquy.
11 MR. DOLAN: I am just trying to make sure that
12 we please keep to the CCP. We have been pretty good at it
13 in doing this so far, and I don’t like it when we start
14 having this other stuff.
15 MR. BURESH: I don’t either.
16 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever have an
17 understanding that once you were aware that Walter Breen
18 may have molested a child, that MZB Enterprises could be
19 held liable for any further acts that he undertook in
20 molesting a child?
21 MR. BURESH: I’m going to object to the
22 question. Calls for a legal conclusion, and it’s also not
23 reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of
24 admissible evidence.
25 MR. DOLAN: Are you instructing her not to
1 answer?
2 MR. BURESH: No, she can go ahead and answer
3 the question.
4 MR. DOLAN: I’ll have it read back, please.
5 (Whereupon, the record was read by the
6 reporter.)
7 MR. BURESH: I want to talk to my client.
8 MR. DOLAN: Please let the record reflect that
9 they’re breaking during a pending question.
10 (Discussion off the record.)
11 MR. BURESH: I’m going to instruct the witness
12 not to answer the question.
13 MR. DOLAN: On what basis, please?
14 MR. BURESH: Same basis.
15 MR. DOLAN: Which one, attorney/client
16 privilege or it calls for a legal conclusion? I just want
17 to be clear, Scott; that’s all.
18 MR. BURESH: I have stated three different
19 objections to this line of questioning. Invasion of
20 attorney-client privilege, calls for a legal conclusion,
21 and is not reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery
22 of admissible evidence.
23 MR. DOLAN: Q. I just want to be very clear
24 that you understand my question. I’m not asking if an
25 attorney told you anything. I’m asking, did you
1 understand? I’m not asking if you, as a lawyer, just as
2 you as a person; if you had any understanding at this time
3 in 1989 as to whether or not, once you knew that Walter
4 Breen was capable of molesting children, that Marion
5 Zimmer Bradley Enterprises could be held responsible if he
6 did so as an employee?
7 Is it the same instruction not to answer?
8 MR. BURESH: Correct.
9 MR. DOLAN: Please mark that.
10 (Whereupon, the previous question was marked
11 for the record.)
12 MR. DOLAN: Q. At some point did you become
13 concerned that Walter’s behavior might cause liability for
14 MZB Enterprises?
15 Unless your lawyer objects, please look — I
16 understand that you’re looking at him, but unless he
17 objects, I’m entitled to an answer.
18 A. After I found out what he had done to Kenny,
19 yes, I became concerned that his behavior would cause
20 future liability.
21 Q. Were you concerned that it might cause the loss
22 of one or more of the houses as well?
23 A. Well, since he and Marion owned 2221 Prince
24 Street as husband and wife, I was concerned that it might
25 cause the loss of that house if he were sued.
1 Q. Was that one of the reasons why the title to
2 2221 Prince Street was transferred over to Marion solely?
3 A. That was done as part of the divorce because
4 she was the one living there.
5 Q. The question was, was that one of the reasons
6 why that property was transferred over to Marion Zimmer
7 Bradley?
8 A. I don’t know. I was not a party to the divorce
9 negotiations.
10 Q. Was it your testimony that you never contacted
11 Camille LeGrand regarding the divorce?
12 A. I called her secretary to set up an
13 appointment.
14 Q. Did you participate in any way whatsoever in
15 terms of the handling of the divorce other than calling
16 the secretary of Camille LeGrand to set up an appointment?
17 MS. DURRELL: I’m going to object. That’s
18 overbroad, vague and ambiguous as to “handling the divorce
19 proceedings.”
20 MR. DOLAN: You may answer.
21 A. I believe I helped draw up the list of assets
22 and sort out what was community property and what wasn’t.
23 Q. Did you have any understanding as to whether or
24 not one of the motivating factors in divorcing Walter
25 Breen was to protect Marion Zimmer Bradley for any
1 liability for his conduct?
2 MR. BURESH: Object to the question.
3 THE WITNESS: I’m sorry, could you rephrase the
4 question. I don’t quite understand it.
5 MR. DOLAN: Did you finish your objection?
6 MR. BURESH: I was going to state the grounds
7 for my objection. It’s not reasonably calculated to lead
8 to the discovery of admissible evidence, and I’ll also
9 object based on what the witness said that it’s ambiguous
10 and unintelligible.
11 MR. DOLAN: Q. Do you have any understanding
12 that one of the motivating factors for Marion Zimmer
13 Bradley to divorce Walter Breen was to protect herself
14 from any liability for the actions of Walter Breen in
15 molesting children?
16 You keep looking at your counsel, which you’re
17 free to do, but this is a deposition that is really
18 controlled by me asking you questions and not your counsel
19 sort of controlling the gate of information.
20 A. Well, after he’s objected to the last five or
21 six, I want to be sure. So I can answer this?
22 MR. BURESH: Yes.
23 MS. DURRELL: Also, you feel free to look at
24 your attorney.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you. My understanding of
1 the reason why Marion divorced Walter was that she was so
2 angry to discover that he really was a child molester that
3 she just didn’t feel that she could live with him anymore.
4 MR. DOLAN: Q. The question was, was one of
5 the reasons why she divorced Walter Breen, as far as you
6 know, in an effort to protect herself from liability for
7 his actions in molesting children?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you ever hear Marion Zimmer Bradley state,
10 “If Walter ever did this again, I would divorce him”?
11 MR. BURESH: Asked and answered.
12 MR. DOLAN: Q. You can answer unless you’re
13 instructed not to.
14 MR. BURESH: Well, other than what she has
15 already testified to?
16 THE WITNESS: We went over all that this
17 morning.
18 MR. BURESH: I’m going to object. It’s
19 argumentative. Instruct the witness not to answer.
20 MR. DOLAN: I asked her, did she ever hear
21 Marion Zimmer say this; that’s argumentative?
22 MR. BURESH: In light of the fact that you
23 asked the question this morning and in light of the
24 context, yes.
25 MR. DOLAN: No, I’m allowed to re-ask certain
1 questions in certain ways at different times to probe an
2 issue.
3 MR. BURESH: No, you’re not.
4 MR. DOLAN: You guys are obstructing me now, and
5 I’m trying to play this fair, but we will be in front of a
6 judge mega times on this because this is not something I
7 engage in. I am asking her questions to probe on an issue
8 of why this woman divorced her husband.
9 MR. BURESH: You’re asking her the same
10 question repeated times.
11 MR. DOLAN: I am not asking repeated times and
12 the record will bear that out. I know when I’m asking
13 repeated times, and I’m not.
14 MR. BURESH: We went into that.
15 MR. DOLAN: The record will bare it out, and it
16 will be in front of a judge, and I will seek sanctions,
17 and it’s unfortunate.
18 Q. Did Marion Zimmer Bradley ever tell you that if
19 Walter ever molested children again she would divorce him?
20 A. No.
21 MR. BURESH: You just asked that.
22 MR. DOLAN: That’s all I want to know.
23 MR. BURESH: Object to the question. You’re
24 going to have to look at me and give me time, just as
25 Chris told you at the beginning, especially when I’m
1 objecting like this.
2 MR. DOLAN: Q. Do you know if Marion Zimmer
3 Bradley ever met Mary Mason prior to the report of
4 molestation of Ken Smith in 1989?
5 A. To the best of my knowledge, Marion has never
6 actually met Mary Mason, aside from perhaps talking to her
7 at a convention as a fan, which is different from meeting
8 someone as a person and establishing a personal
9 relationship.
10 Q. To your knowledge, do you know if Marion Zimmer
11 Bradley has ever discussed the issue of Ken Smith in any
12 form with Mary Mason?
13 A. To the best of my knowledge, she has not.
14 Q. Do you know if she has ever discussed Ken
15 Smith’s molestation with Mary Mason after it was reported
16 to the police?
17 A. To the best of my knowledge, she has not.
18 Q. Do you have any doubt in your mind as to
19 whether or not Walter Breen molested Ken Smith?
20 A. Well, yes, I do have a little bit. When I read
21 the police report, I could tell that Kenny was lying to
22 Officer Harris.
23 Q. So do you believe that Walter Breen molested
24 Ken Smith?
25 A. I believe he may have done it once, but I don’t
1 believe all the stuff that’s in the police report.
2 Q. Did you ever investigate to find out if he had
3 done it more than once?
4 A. No.
5 Q. After you rented the property to Walter Breen
6 in 1986, did you ever hear any allegations of child
7 molestation against Walter Breen up and through the time
8 that he was reported to the police?
9 A. Until he was reported for molesting Kenny, no.
10 Q. Do you know if there are any letters that exist
11 between Walter and Marion from the time period that they
12 were courting?
13 A. No, I know of no such letters.
14 Q. Did you look for any such letters when you were
15 providing your response to the request for production of
16 documents?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. When you were providing your response to the
19 request for production of documents, did you go through
20 all of Marion Zimmer Bradley’s papers and effects as well?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were the responses that you provided to the
23 request for production of document only those documents
24 which you had in your personal possession, or were they
25 also the documents that Marion Zimmer Bradley had in her
1 possession?
2 A. Both. Since I’m her secretary, most of her
3 documents are in my possession.
4 Q. Do you know if any documents exist that you did
5 not go through that are owned by Marion Zimmer Bradley —
6 strike that.
7 Do you know if there are any documents owned by
8 Marion Zimmer Bradley that you did not go through in
9 formulating your responses to the request for production
10 of documents?
11 A. I don’t believe so.
12 Q. Did you talk with Marion Zimmer Bradley when
13 you were putting together your responses to the request
14 for production of documents?
15 A. Yes, I did. She went into the hospital the
16 next day.
17 Q. Do you think those two were connected?
18 MR. BURESH: Well, I will let her answer.
19 Objection, it calls for an opinion, an expert opinion, but
20 go ahead. If you’ve got an opinion.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I think there is a
22 connection. She had a heart attack when she found out
23 what Walter had done. Having to relive one of the most
24 traumatic times of her life could not have been good for
25 her health.
1 MR. DOLAN: Q. Prior to having her heart
2 attack, was she able to manage her financial affairs?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Prior to having her most recent heart attack,
5 was she able to remember events that occurred between 1985
6 and 1989, as far as you know?
7 A. Define “most recent heart attack”.
8 Q. Well, you indicated that when you were filling
9 out your request for production of documents she had a
10 heart attack and she went into the hospital?
11 A. No, she went into the hospital. She didn’t
12 have a heart attack.
13 Q. Okay. Prior to her going to the hospital the
14 most recent time, let’s say that, when you were doing the
15 request for production of documents, was she able to
16 remember events which occurred between 1985 and 1989, as
17 far as you know?
18 MR. BURESH: Objection, calls for an expert
19 opinion. Calls for speculation.
20 MR. DOLAN: Q. You can answer.
21 A. Some of them.
22 Q. Was Marion Zimmer Bradley having difficulty
23 remembering events — strike that.
24 Did you witness, see or hear anything that
25 would lead you to believe that Marion Zimmer Bradley was
1 having difficulties remembering events that occurred
2 between 1985 and 1989 before she was admitted to the
3 hospital this last time?
4 A. I don’t know. She’s a science fiction writer.
5 Her brain has always been on another planet, and more
6 recently she’s just been less and less interested in daily
7 life. She turned more of it over to me to manage. I
8 don’t know what she can remember or can’t remember.
9 Q. Has she ever told you that she has memory
10 problems?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Have you ever witnessed anything about Marion
13 Zimmer Bradley prior to being admitted to the hospital
14 this last time that led you to believe that she was having
15 memory problems?
16 A. Well, yeah, she had a couple of strokes.
17 Q. And how did that affect her memory that you
18 were able to observe?
19 A. Well, while she was having these strokes, she
20 would insist she was fine when she couldn’t walk across
21 the room. This last time when she was in the hospital
22 visiting — when the visiting nurse called to arrange to
23 come out and asked to verify her street address, they had
24 the address wrong. Marion had given them the wrong
25 address. It’s hard to tell sometimes what’s loss of
1 memory and what’s just loss of interest.
2 Q. Do you have any personal belief as to whether
3 or not Marion Zimmer Bradley’s memory has been affected by
4 her stroke?
5 MR. BURESH: Objection, calls for an expert
6 opinion.
7 MR. DOLAN: I’m just asking her belief.
8 MR. BURESH: Her personal beliefs are
9 irrelevant. Go ahead. I’m not going to argue.
10 MR. DOLAN: She said she saw her on a
11 day-to-day basis.
12 THE WITNESS: I think her cognitive function
13 has been affected by her strokes. I’m not sure to what
14 extent her memory has.
15 MR. DOLAN: Q. Were you ever informed that
16 Walter was giving drugs to children?
17 A. Moira said that he used to give her marijuana
18 to put in the spaghetti sauce to cook for him.
19 Q. When did Moira tell you this?
20 A. Sometime when she was in her late teens, I
21 think.
22 Q. Did you find that to be inappropriate?
23 A. Well, I didn’t think that you should give drugs
24 to children, so, yes.
25 Q. Did you ever ask Walter about it?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you ever undertake any investigation to
3 find out whether or not Walter was giving drugs to
4 children after Moira had reported that to you sometime in
5 her teens?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you have any understanding — strike that.
8 Did you learn that information from Moira that
9 Walter was giving her drugs to put in the spaghetti sauce
10 prior to renting him the premises in 1986?
11 A. I think so.
12 Q. Did you ever learn any information about Walter
13 Breen giving drugs to anyone other than Moira Breen?
14 A. I believe that Patrick Breen used marijuana as
15 a teenager, but I don’t know where he got it.
16 Q. Do you have any information as to whether or
17 not Walter Breen ever smoked marijuana with Patrick Breen
18 when Patrick Breen was under the age of 18?
19 A. I never saw either of them smoke marijuana, but
20 they smelled funny a lot.
21 Q. Do you have any information as to whether or
22 not they ever smoked marijuana together, whether or not
23 you actually saw them; you may have heard something or
24 someone has told you?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did you ever smoke marijuana — well, I won’t
2 ask that question.
3 Did you ever see Walter Breen smoking marijuana
4 in your presence?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you have any information as to whether or
7 not Walter Breen ever gave drugs to any of the friends of
8 Moira and Patrick Breen?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Have you ever been told that by anyone?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Were you at all concerned about renting an
13 apartment in 1986 to Walter Breen if you knew that he was
14 using marijuana?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Were you at all concerned about the rental of
17 the apartment to Walter Breen if you knew that he was
18 giving marijuana to his children prior to 1986?
19 A. By 1986 his children were adults, so that was
20 not a concern if, in fact, he was giving them marijuana.
21 Q. Okay. Was your and Marion’s departure from the
22 Prince Street address connected in any way with the
23 episode of finding young boys in Walter’s bed?
24 A. What departure from the Prince Street address?
25 Q. I’m just going from what Moira told us. She
1 indicated that you and Marion departed Prince Street after
2 a young boy was found in Walter’s bed, and I’m wondering
3 if you have any information about that allegation by
4 Moira?
5 A. If she’s talking about when she was complaining
6 about Walter’s behavior with [other name] in 1981; that was when
7 Walter left Prince Street, and Marion and I moved in.
8 Q. Okay. What behavior are we talking about
9 relating to [other name] in 1981?
10 MR. BURESH: Well, what behavior is she talking
11 about or are you talking about?
12 MR. DOLAN: She just mentioned, “behavior with
13 [other name] in 1981.” What behavior are you referencing?
14 A. Moira complained that her father was trying to
15 steal her friends.
16 Q. Did Moira complain that her father was trying
17 to seduce her friends?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did Moira complain that her father was trying
20 to steal her friends in any way relate to anything of a
21 sexual nature?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did Moira ever complain to you that she felt
24 her father was trying to pick up her friends in a sexual
25 manner?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did Moira ever complain to you that she thought
3 her father and [other name] were engaged in sex together?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did anyone ever inform you that they believed
6 that Walter and [other name] were engaged in sexual conduct?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you ever talk to Walter about Moira’s
9 belief that Walter was trying to steal her friends?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you ever ask Moira what she meant by that?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you undertake any investigation to find out
14 what Moira meant when she said Walter was trying to steal
15 her friends?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Had you ever heard that Moira was of the belief
18 that her mother attacked her with a pair of pliers?
19 A. I think the story you’re talking about is that
20 her mother tied her to a chair and threatened to pull out
21 her teeth with pliers but did not actually touch her.
22 Q. Had you heard that story before?
23 A. Yes, from Marion. She was deeply ashamed of
24 it.
25 Q. When did you hear that story?
1 A. I don’t remember. Sometime in the 1980’s.
2 Q. Was it prior to 1989?
3 A. Probably.
4 Q. What did Marion tell you about that episode?
5 A. That Moira kept biting Patrick, and she
6 couldn’t think of any way to stop her, so she tied her to
7 a chair and threatened to pull out all of her teeth with
8 pliers, and Moira became hysterical, and Marion untied her
9 and let her go, and Moira never bit her brother again.
10 Q. Did Marion ever tell you about any other story
11 where she tied up her children?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did she tell you any other stories that were
14 similar to the threat of physical abuse of the children if
15 they did not behave?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you ever see Marion attempt to take a knife
18 to herself?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you ever see Marion attempt to take a knife
21 to anyone else?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you ever see Marion claw at her own face?
24 A. No.
25 MR. DOLAN: This is stuff that’s all in
1 Walter’s letters to the police.
2 MR. BURESH: I know. I am just wondering what
3 the relevance is.
4 MR. DOLAN: I’m just trying to find out about
5 the stability of one of the defendants regarding her own
6 child and other people, which I think is at issue in this
7 litigation.
8 MR. BURESH: That’s pretty broad, but anyway, I
9 don’t want to argue with you right now. Let’s wait for
10 another question.
11 MR. DOLAN: Q. Do you have any knowledge as to
12 whether or not Marion ever tried to beat Moira to death?
13 A. I think it highly unlikely, and certainly I
14 never saw her strike Moira.
15 Q. Did the family take in any other fosterlings
16 other than Elizabeth Rousseau, Kathryn Krischild, [Name A]
17 or Barry Austin that you know of?
18 MR. BURESH: I’m going to let the witness
19 answer. I’m objecting that it’s been asked and answered.
20 Go ahead.
21 THE WITNESS: Well, we didn’t actually have
22 fosterlings, but there were other people who lived in the
23 household from time to time.
24 MR. DOLAN: Q. Any of those minor children?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Who were the other people who lived in the
2 household from time to time from the time period from 1980
3 through 1989?
4 A. Greg Harder stayed with us for a while. He was
5 Kat’s boyfriend. H-a-r-d-e-r. Let’s see. Kristoph
6 Klover, K-r-i-s-t-o-p-h, K-l-o-v-e-r. That’s all I recall
7 off the top of my head.
8 Q. Do you know where Greg Harder lives now?
9 A. No, Kat broke up with him years ago as far as
10 I know.
11 Q. Do you know where his family was from?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know where Kristoph Klover lives now?
14 A. In Oakland.
15 Q. Do you know where in Oakland?
16 A. I think it’s Truman Street.
17 Q. Did you ever have a romantic relationship with
18 either of these two people?
19 MR. BURESH: Objection, instruct the witness
20 not to answer. Invasion of privacy and not reasonably
21 calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible
22 evidence.
23 MR. DOLAN: Q. Were you ever emotionally
24 involved with either of these two people?
25 MR. BURESH: Same objection, same instruction.
1 MR. DOLAN: I’m entitled to probe if there
2 might be bias when I get to these witnesses later on,
3 Scott. That’s all I’m asking. I’m not asking about sex.
4 She doesn’t have a right to privacy on emotional
5 relationships, only sexual ones.
6 THE WITNESS: You’re asking if I was trying to
7 have an affair with my housemate’s boyfriends?
8 MR. DOLAN: No.
9 MR. BURESH: You can go ahead and answer
10 whether you had an emotional relationship with either of
11 those two.
12 THE WITNESS: No.
13 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did Marion ever discuss with
14 you any of her beliefs regarding the age of consent?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you tell me when she first discussed that
17 with you?
18 A. No, not the exact date. But she said
19 repeatedly that anyone who molested a child under the age
20 of puberty should get the death penalty.
21 Q. Do you know what she meant by the age of
22 puberty?
23 A. Puberty, as in physical puberty.
24 Q. No, I am wondering if you have any
25 understanding of what she believed the age of puberty was?
1 A. I understood her to mean physical puberty.
2 Q. Ages like —
3 A. 13.
4 MR. BURESH: Well —
5 MR. DOLAN: I’m asking if she had an
6 understanding.
7 MR. BURESH: — the question assumes a fact not
8 in evidence, namely that there is an age, a specific age
9 of puberty that’s the same regardless of the individual.
10 MR. DOLAN: Q. I’m asking if she has any
11 understanding what Marion Zimmer Bradley’s definition of
12 puberty is as she used it in that sentence?
13 A. My belief was that she meant physical puberty.
14 After that she was content to see them thrown in jail.
15 Q. Okay. And I’m asking you if you have any
16 understanding of what Marion Zimmer Bradley’s definition
17 of physical puberty was in terms of chronological ages?
18 A. It varies from person to person.
19 MR. BURESH: He’s asking if you have an
20 understanding of what Marion meant, and if you do have an
21 understanding of what she meant, you can tell him, and if
22 you don’t, you can tell him.
23 THE WITNESS: I’m sorry, could you repeat the
24 question? It just didn’t quite make sense.
25 MR. DOLAN: Q. Sure. You indicated that
1 Marion thought that anyone who had sex with a child under
2 the age of puberty ought to be thrown in jail, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 MS. DURRELL: No, she said the death sentence.
5 THE WITNESS: Death sentence. Pass puberty
6 should go to jail.
7 MR. DOLAN: Q. Past puberty should go to jail?
8 A. Yeah, in other words if you molest a 16 year
9 old, you should go to jail. If you molest Kenny, you
10 should get the death penalty. And I asked her if she
11 included Walter in that, and she said, yes.
12 Q. Did Marion Zimmer Bradley ever tell you that
13 she believed that the age of consent should be lowered?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know why — did Marion Zimmer Bradley
16 visit Walter Breen after he had been arrested for
17 molestation of the boy in L.A.?
18 A. I think she went to see him once in —
19 Q. Can you explain — strike that.
20 Did you have any knowledge as to why she went
21 to visit Walter Breen when she believed that anybody who
22 got caught molesting a child under the age of puberty
23 should be killed?
24 MR. BURESH: Object on the basis it’s
25 argumentative. If you just lop off the second part after
1 the second and ask if she knows why Marion went down to
2 visit him, that would be fine. Otherwise, it’s
3 argumentative, and I’m objecting and instructing the
4 witness not to answer.
5 THE WITNESS: She —
6 MR. BURESH: No, he hasn’t changed the question
7 yet.
8 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did her beliefs regarding
9 people who molest children under the age of puberty, to
10 your knowledge, ever change?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Can you explain why then she went to visit
13 Walter Breen?
14 MR. BURESH: Same objection.
15 MR. DOLAN: You said if I cut it off.
16 MR. BURESH: You didn’t. You said —
17 MR. DOLAN: And now I’m asking.
18 MR. BURESH: You didn’t cut it off, you joined
19 it up again.
20 MS. DURRELL: You just put it in front instead
21 of at the end, Chris.
22 MR. DOLAN: It’s a different question.
23 Q. The question is, do you have an understanding
24 as to why she went to visit Walter Breen?
25 MR. BURESH: That’s fine. He wants to know if
1 you have —
2 MR. DOLAN: My question — please don’t
3 interpret my question, Scott. I don’t want you
4 interpreting my question. My question speaks for itself.
5 If she doesn’t understand, she can ask me.
6 MR. BURESH: Ask the question then.
7 MR. DOLAN: Q. The question was asked, and it
8 will be read back.
9 (Whereupon, the record was read by the
10 reporter.)
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, he was in Highland Hospital
12 in the jail ward, and they just found out that he had
13 terminal cancer.
14 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did Walter continue to work for
15 MZB Enterprises after the charges of molestation came up
16 on Ken Smith?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did Walter continue to work for MZB Enterprises
19 after he pled guilty to the molestation of Ken Smith?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know why Walter Breen continued to work
22 for MZB Enterprises after he pled guilty to molesting a
23 child under the age of puberty?
24 A. Because, unfortunately, when I wrote his
25 contract, I didn’t put a clause in it to allow us to fire
1 him under those circumstances.
2 Q. Had anyone told you that you couldn’t fire
3 Walter Breen before the termination of his contract?
4 MR. BURESH: Other than an attorney?
5 THE WITNESS: Well, no, but the contract was
6 written with a specific term and did not provide for
7 firing him.
8 MR. DOLAN: Q. So was it your understanding
9 that you couldn’t fire Walter Breen before the expiration
10 of his contract?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Where did you get that understanding from?
13 MR. BURESH: Assuming that she got it from
14 somewhere.
15 MR. DOLAN: Q. Well, it had to come from
16 somewhere.
17 A. My own very imperfect understanding of the law.
18 Q. Did you ever have any discussions with Marion
19 Zimmer Bradley about Walter being alone in the company of
20 young boys prior to the molestation of Ken Smith?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you ever talk to [Victim X]?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you know where he resides now?
25 A. I never met him in my life. He was gone long
1 before I moved out.
2 Q. Was [Victim X] around the house at some
3 point before you moved out?
4 A. He was the one back in the 1960’s?
5 Q. Correct.
6 A. I didn’t move out until 1979. I never met him.
7 Q. I didn’t know if you were talking about moving
8 out — moving out here or moving out of there to another
9 place. I was trying to understand that. Did you ever
10 meet Sean Sullivan?
11 A. Not to the best of my recollection.
12 Q. Do you know who Sean Sullivan is?
13 A. I believe he’s the guy that Walter was accused
14 of molesting in Los Angeles.
15 Q. Are you aware of any of the charges regarding
16 Sean Sullivan and Walter Breen?
17 A. Child molesting.
18 Q. Are you aware of any charge involving
19 molestation which occurred when Sean was in Berkeley?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Are you aware of whether there were any
22 allegations of Sean was molested in the hob tub at Green
23 Walls?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Was Walter prohibited from having guests after
1 the allegations of — strike that.
2 Was Walter prohibited from having young boys as
3 guests at the goldfish bowl after the charges of
4 molestation were brought concerning Ken Smith?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was that done in writing or verbally or how?
7 A. It was part of his probation. He wasn’t
8 allowed to be with people under 18.
9 Q. Well, that may have been after he was pled
10 out. My question was after the charge arose regarding Ken
11 Smith.
12 Let me ask a different question. After the
13 charges regarding Ken Smith arose, did you undertake any
14 activity to prohibit Walter Breen from having any young
15 children on any of the premises owned by yourself or
16 Marion Zimmer Bradley?
17 A. I believe Marion did.
18 Q. Do you know how that was done?
19 A. I think she wrote him a letter.
20 Q. Do you know where that letter is today?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did she keep copies of most of her
23 correspondence?
24 A. No, usually not.
25 Q. Do you know what the letter said?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you read that letter?
3 A. I don’t remember.
4 Q. Did Marion draft her own correspondence, or did
5 you draft it, for the most part?
6 A. Well, since part of her correspondence is
7 answering her fan mail, I do most of it, but for her own
8 personal correspondence, she usually does it.
9 Q. Do you recall whether you prepared the letter
10 sent to Walter or Marion did?
11 A. Marion did.
12 Q. Did you know what the contents of the letter
13 was in any way?
14 A. I gathered she was saying she was very angry
15 with him and disgusted by his behavior and didn’t want —
16 I think she said she didn’t want him on the property at
17 Green Walls.
18 Q. Anything else?
19 A. (Witness shakes head.)
20 Q. Do you know if she still undertook any activity
21 to remove him from the property at Green Walls?
22 A. She told him she didn’t want him on the
23 property.
24 Q. Do you know if he ever came back to the
25 property at Green Walls?
1 A. Yes, he did. She calmed down later or
2 something, I guess.
3 Q. Did you have any understanding as to why Marion
4 Zimmer Bradley would permit this gentleman who pled guilty
5 to child molestation back on her property?
6 A. Well, he was her ex-husband and the father of
7 her two young children, and she was, after all, fond of
8 him. He used to come over in the afternoons and have a
9 cup of tea with her, but he didn’t bring other people with
10 him after that.
11 Q. After the allegations of Ken Smith came up, did
12 you ever discuss with Walter his molestation of any other
13 children?
14 A. No.
15 Q. After the allegations of molestation with Ken
16 Smith came up, did you ever discuss with Walter the
17 allegations of molestation of Ken Smith?
18 A. I asked him if he was true, and he didn’t deny
19 it.
20 Q. Anything else?
21 A. Practically every word I said to him on the
22 subject of sex is in the police report.
23 MR. BURESH: Would you like to review that in
24 order to answer the question?
25 MR. DOLAN: She hasn’t indicate she cannot
1 remember. The only reason to have her review something is
2 to refresh her recollection. I don’t — I’m not going to
3 allow her to review documents at your direction at this
4 time.
5 THE WITNESS: Okay. First, I asked him why his
6 bank account was overdrawn, and he said he had written a
7 check for $5,000 to hire a lawyer because Officer Harris
8 wanted to talk to him, and at that point I began to really
9 seriously believe he was guilty of the accusations made
10 about his behavior with Kenny.
11 A couple of days later I asked him if he really
12 performed oral sex on Kenny, and he said, “yes.”
13 No, actually he asked me who told me, and I
14 said Mary Mason did, and he said he didn’t know she was
15 talking about it, and I said, “Well, she did to me.” So he
16 didn’t actually say, yes, but he didn’t deny it.
17 And then sometime later, I forgot how the
18 subject originally came up, but I said, “How could you do
19 that to an 11 year old?” And Walter said, “He was 12.”
20 Q. Anything else?
21 A. You mean like his exact words?
22 Q. Correct.
23 A. “He was 12 and besides he wasn’t a virgin.”
24 Q. Okay. Anything else that he said that you can
25 recall in any of these three conversations regarding
1 whether or not he actually molested Ken Smith?
2 A. Well, he seemed to think that it didn’t matter
3 because Kenny didn’t care about it and Mary didn’t care
4 about it; that it was okay because Kenny and Mary didn’t
5 object.
6 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.)
7 MR. DOLAN: Back on the record, please.
8 Q. Did Walter, in his documentation, indicate that
9 he corresponded with Marion Zimmer Bradley from the mid
10 ’60s up until the point of their marriage? Do you know
11 if any of those letters are still in existence?
12 A. Not to my knowledge.
13 Q. If they did exist, do you know where they would
14 be kept as far as the structure of Marion’s home?
15 A. Yes, in the files that I went through to
16 prepare for the document production.
17 Q. Did you see any such documents as those when
18 you were looking through those files?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Who was Vince Morgante?
21 A. I don’t know.
22 Q. Do you know why he was receiving $50 payments
23 from Walter each month when you were paying Walter’s
24 bills?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Do you know who Margaret was that was referred
2 to on the rental receipts?
3 A. Which rental receipts?
4 Q. It says, “Davis, Margaret.” Is that Margaret
5 Davis, or do you know who that relates to there?
6 A. Yes, I know who Margaret Davis is, but what
7 rental receipts are we talking about?
8 Q. It says, “Rental receipts; Davis, Margaret;
9 rent x/i 75.”
10 A. Oh, she and Kristoph were living with Walter,
11 and they were paying part of the rent.
12 Q. She was Margaret Davis then; that’s her full
13 name?
14 A. Yes, Margaret Davis.
15 Q. Do you know where Margaret Davis lives now?
16 A. With Kristoph Klover. They’re married.
17 Q. Okay, and you gave me a place where you thought
18 they were living earlier; where was that again?
19 A. Truman Avenue in Oakland.
20 Q. Do you know who Joan Sandberg is?
21 A. Joan Sandberg, was she one of Moira’s
22 therapists?
23 Q. Well —
24 MR. BURESH: He’s asking you if you know, and
25 if you don’t know, just say you don’t know.
1 THE WITNESS: The name sounds familiar, but I
2 don’t remember offhand.
3 MR. DOLAN: Q. There’s some payments to a Joan
4 Sandberg included in this documentation. I was just
5 wondering if you knew who that was?
6 A. Where are they?
7 Q. On the next page, “Sandberg, Joan.” It begins
8 with “cash” at the top of the document. I don’t want to
9 touch your documents. This next page here, down at the
10 bottom, second paragraph up, third — fourth line up.
11 A. Okay, that would be Moira. That would be one of
12 Moira’s therapists. And from the coding on Vince
13 Morgante, he must have been some doctor Walter was seeing.
14 Q. Did Marion Zimmer Bradley keep a journal as far
15 as you know?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you know if she kept any documentation
18 regarding the allegations against Walter of pedophilia?
19 A. No.
20 Q. When you were first made aware that there might
21 have been some sort of a problem with Walter molesting Ken
22 Smith?
23 A. When I talked to Mary at the WorldCon.
24 Q. Had you heard from Moira, or anybody before,
25 that there had been a report made to the police?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When did you first hear that there might have
3 been some molestation of Ken Smith?
4 A. Well, I heard that Moira had told the therapist
5 who told the police sometime in July.
6 Q. How did you learn that?
7 A. I don’t remember, somebody must have — I think
8 maybe Marion told me.
9 Q. Did Moira ever call you directly to tell you
10 that?
11 A. Not that I recall.
12 Q. Do you ever recall Moira trying to get in touch
13 with Marion to talk about this issue and you preventing
14 her from doing so?
15 A. If Moira called Marion and I didn’t let her
16 talk to Marion, it would have been because Marion wasn’t
17 home. I was not in the habit of coming between the
18 children and their mother.
19 Q. So is it your testimony that you first heard
20 about the molestation of Ken Smith from Marion Zimmer
21 Bradley?
22 A. To the best of my belief, I first heard about
23 the allegation that Kenny had been molested from Marion,
24 yes.
25 Q. Do you know how Marion had learned of it?
1 A. From Moira, I assume.
2 Q. Please don’t assume.
3 A. Sorry.
4 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to how Marion
5 learned about this?
6 A. I believe she said Moira had told her.
7 Q. Did you ever talk to Moira directly about the
8 report of molestation of Ken Smith at any time prior to
9 first speaking to the police about it — you first
10 speaking to the police about it?
11 A. I wrote to her, but I didn’t speak to her. She
12 moved, and I didn’t have her phone number, and she wasn’t
13 speaking to me.
14 Q. Did you say the first time you ever talked to
15 Mary Mason about it was at the WorldCon?
16 A. Aside from the phone call telling her that the
17 police wanted to talk to Kenny. The first time I talked to
18 her about the actual molestation was at the WorldCon, yes.
19 Q. When did you talk to her about the police
20 wanting to talk to Kenny?
21 A. That must have been sometime in July.
22 Q. Who would you have spoken to regarding the
23 molestation prior to talking to Mary Mason in July?
24 A. I really don’t remember. All I remember is
25 that somebody told me that the police wanted to talk to
1 Kenny, and since I’m the person in the family who’s
2 organized enough to be able to look in the SFWA directory
3 which had Mary’s phone number, I got delegated to call
4 Mary and tell her the police were looking for her kid.
5 Q. Did you have any understanding is to why the
6 police were looking for her at that time?
7 A. Because Moira said that Walter was molesting
8 him.
9 Q. And you learned that Moira said that Walter was
10 molesting him from whom?
11 A. I believe it was from Marion.
12 Q. And who did you learn — who was it that you
13 learned from — who was it —
14 A. From whom.
15 Q. — from whom did you learn that the police
16 wanted to talk to Kenny?
17 A. I don’t remember.
18 Q. Had you talked to the police at that time at
19 that point prior to calling Mary Mason?
20 A. No.
21 Q. How did you know that the police wanted to talk
22 to Mary Mason or Kenny?
23 A. I believe Marion must have told me.
24 Q. Did you have any understanding at the time
25 where Ken Smith was?
1 A. With Walter.
2 Q. Okay. Prior to the call from — or from
3 learning from whoever that there had been an allegation
4 that Walter was molesting Ken, did you know that Ken was
5 with Walter?
6 A. I don’t believe so.
7 Q. Did someone tell you that Ken was with Walter?
8 A. At some point around the time of WesterCon, or
9 right before or right after, somebody said that Kenny was
10 going with Walter to Disneyland after the convention and
11 was going to stay with Walter for a month.
12 And then right after the convention, Moira came
13 out with these accusations and nobody seemed to know where
14 Kenny and Walter were, so I called Mary assuming that she,
15 at least, would know where her child was, and then that
16 was about all I heard until I ran into Mary at WorldCon in
17 September.
18 Q. Who was it that told you that Kenny and Walter
19 were going to spend a month together?
20 A. I don’t remember.
21 Q. Do you have any recollection whatsoever of how
22 you came to understand that?
23 A. No.
24 Q. But you knew that before Moira had said that
25 Kenny was being molested, correct?
1 A. I think so. I’m not positive.
2 Q. Did someone tell you to call Mary Mason?
3 A. I believe Marion did.
4 Q. Can you tell me everything you can recall about
5 the conversation where Marion informed you that Walter had
6 been accused of molesting Ken?
7 A. Marion said that Moira had blown the whistle on
8 her father, and I looked at her blankly, and I said, “For
9 what?” And she said that Moira was saying that Walter was
10 molesting Kenny, and then I guess she said the police
11 wanted to talk — were looking for Kenny and nobody knew
12 where to find him, so I got my SFWA directory, and I
13 called Mary Mason.
14 Q. Did you ask Marion whether she thought it could
15 be true?
16 A. No, she didn’t sound as if she thought it were
17 true.
18 Q. Okay. Did you have any further discussions
19 with her regarding Walter and the molestation of Kenny or
20 any other children at that time?
21 A. Not until she got back in October.
22 Q. So Walter, who was a tenant of yours, as well
23 as her ex-husband, had been accused of molesting a child,
24 correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And the only conversation that occurred between
2 the two of you was Marion saying that Moira had blown the
3 whistle on Walter and had accused him of molesting Kenny;
4 is that correct?
5 MR. BURESH: Object to the question as being
6 augmentative and asked and answered. If you want to ask
7 the question again, go ahead.
8 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that was pretty much what I
9 remember. You know, this was —
10 MR. BURESH: You have answered the question.
11 THE WITNESS: — this was a long time ago.
12 MR. DOLAN: Q. You spoke to Mary Mason, what
13 did you say to her?
14 A. Just that the police wanted to talk to Kenny.
15 Q. Did you tell her why?
16 A. I believe so.
17 Q. Do you recall what you said to her in that
18 regard?
19 A. I think I said that the police thought that
20 Walter was molesting Kenny, and they wanted to talk to
21 Kenny and —
22 Q. Did you say anything else to her?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did Mary say anything to you?
25 A. “Okay.”
1 Q. Did she tell you where she thought Kenny was?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you have any further conversation with her
4 at that time?
5 A. No, I think, as I recall she just said, “okay,”
6 and hung up.
7 Q. Did you try and locate Walter?
8 A. Did I try and locate Walter?
9 Q. Uh-hum.
10 A. No, I had no way of locating Walter.
11 Q. Did you talk to Walter at all after — did
12 Walter call or anything?
13 A. No.
14 MR. BURESH: Well, let’s get the time frame
15 down.
16 MR. DOLAN: Q. That day, did you talk to
17 Walter at all?
18 A. No, Walter didn’t turn up at home for another
19 couple of weeks, I think.
20 Q. Did you undertake any activity to try to locate
21 Walter in the couple of weeks before he returned home?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Were you at all concerned that Walter might be
24 molesting this child?
25 A. It was my understanding that once I had told
1 his mother that the police wanted to talk to him, and she
2 had acknowledged receipt of this information, that she
3 would take steps to remove her child from Walter’s custody
4 and talk to the police, and certainly that’s what any
5 reasonable parent would do.
6 Q. Did you have any reasons — the question was,
7 did you have any concerns after receiving this information
8 that Walter was molesting Kenny?
9 A. No, I assumed that Mary had removed him from
10 Walter’s presence immediately.
11 Q. Did you ever talk to Ken about the alleged acts
12 of molestation by Walter at that time?
13 A. I have never talked to Ken at all.
14 Q. Did you ever talk to Moira about it; after her
15 mother told you Moira has blown the whistle, did you ever
16 call Moira up and say, what’s going on here or anything?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you undertake any investigation, other than
19 calling Ken Smith’s mother, to find out whether or not
20 these allegations were true between the time that you were
21 first notified of it by Marion Zimmer Bradley and the time
22 that Walter returned home several weeks later?
23 A. No, the police were investigating.
24 Q. Did you talk to Raul about it at all?
25 A. I might have, quite possibly. I talked to Raul
1 a lot.
2 Q. Is Raul an ex-police officer?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did Raul give any advice as to how to handle
5 the situation?
6 A. When I found out that Walter really had
7 molested Kenny, and I wanted to go running straight down
8 and tell Officer Harris everything I knew; Raul told me to
9 wait until she got to me and not impede the flow of her
10 investigation, and that’s why I kept the journal for her.
11 Q. Did you talk to Camille at all on the day that
12 you heard that Walter was molesting — may be molesting
13 Kenny?
14 MR. BURESH: Without disclosing any content of
15 any conversation with Camille.
16 THE WITNESS: I’m sorry, did I talk to Camille
17 when?
18 MR. DOLAN: Q. LeGrand, on the day that you
19 were informed that Moira had blown the whistle on Walter?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you ever talk to her at any time between
22 the time that you were informed that Walter might be
23 molesting Kenny and the time that you talked to the
24 police?
25 MR. BURESH: Again, without divulging the
1 content of any communications.
2 THE WITNESS: I’m just trying to remember the
3 timeline. Yes, I did, because by that time Marion was
4 back and filing for divorce.
5 MR. DOLAN: Q. Okay. Is it your understanding
6 that Marion was filing for divorce before you spoke to the
7 police?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did anyone instruct you that you should keep
10 diaries during that time period?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did anyone review those diaries prior to your
13 handing them to the police?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you show them to Raul?
16 A. I don’t believe so. I might have, but I don’t
17 remember that I did.
18 Q. Did you show them to your lawyer?
19 MR. BURESH: Objection, calls for
20 attorney/client communication.
21 MR. DOLAN: Well, she said she didn’t prepare
22 them at the request of her attorney or for her attorney.
23 I’m just asking if she showed it to her attorney; that’s
24 all I want to know.
25 Q. Did you show them?
1 MR. BURESH: Then it becomes an attorney/client
2 communication, so don’t answer the question.
3 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you show them to anybody
4 prior to showing them to the police?
5 MR. BURESH: Other than an attorney.
6 THE WITNESS: To the best of my recollection,
7 no.
8 MR. DOLAN: Q. When did you first speak with
9 the police?
10 A. I don’t remember the exact date. I will have
11 to look at the — where is it? Here it is. October 20th,
12 1989.
13 Q. What page are you looking at?
14 MR. BURESH: They don’t have page numbers.
15 THE WITNESS: It’s the third from the end of
16 the police report.
17 MR. DOLAN: Q. Thank you. Did you, at that
18 time, give information to Officer Harris on 10/20/89?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Where did you meet with Officer Harris?
21 A. In her office at the police station.
22 Q. Did you give Officer Harris any documents at
23 that time?
24 A. Yes, the journal that I wrote that is appended.
25 Q. Did you also give her forms from the Veterans
1 Administration?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you understand that those forms indicated
4 that Walter had a preference for young boys?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Had you ever seen those documents prior to the
7 date that Ken Smith had been molested?
8 A. I don’t know when Ken Smith was molested.
9 Q. The date that the molestation of Ken Smith was
10 reported, had you seen those documents prior to the date
11 that Ken Smith had been reported as being molested?
12 A. To the best of my recollection, we got that
13 packet of documents from the V.A. in April of ’89.
14 Q. Do you know why you got them in April of ’89?
15 A. I was doing genealogical research.
16 Q. And when you got them in April of ’89, did you
17 read them?
18 A. Yes, some of them, yeah, I certainly started
19 reading them.
20 Q. Did you, in April of ’89 when you read those,
21 did you have any impression as to whether or not Walter
22 Breen had expressed a preference for young men in those
23 documents?
24 A. No, I did not.
25 Q. Did anybody else read those documents between
1 April of ’89 and the time that Kenny Smith’s molestation
2 was reported?
3 MR. BURESH: To your knowledge.
4 THE WITNESS: I think Moira might have.
5 MR. BURESH: I don’t want you to you guess or
6 speculate.
7 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
8 MR. BURESH: Please, I know you’re trying to be
9 helpful.
10 MR. DOLAN: If you have any reason to believe,
11 though, I’m entitled to know.
12 MR. BURESH: That’s right, of course.
13 MR. DOLAN: Q. If you do think, if you’re not
14 guessing or speculating.
15 A. I think Moira did because I was doing the
16 genealogy for her.
17 Q. You provided him with some documents at that
18 time; is that correct?
19 A. Who?
20 Q. Her, Officer Harris, some documents marked
21 “Personal journal”?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know how many pages of documents you
24 provided of your personal journal to Officer Harris?
25 MR. DOLAN: Do you have clean copies?
1 MR. BURESH: The answer is, no, I do not have.
2 Well, wait a minute. Yeah, I think I do.
3 THE WITNESS: Nine pages.
4 MR. DOLAN: Can we use that?
5 THE WITNESS: And you can tell when I provided
6 them to her because they’re signed and dated.
7 MR. DOLAN: Sure.
8 MR. BURESH: You have got what I sent you, the
9 police report?
10 MR. DOLAN: I have them. I just —
11 MR. BURESH: Did you mark the other copy, the
12 one I just sent you?
13 MR. DOLAN: Last night I may have marked these
14 up, but I know I have a clean copy. It’s just a matter of
15 —
16 MR. BURESH: I’m going to give you what I
17 have. I’ve got a clean copy.
18 MR. DOLAN: I’ll make a copy and give it back
19 to you.
20 MR. BURESH: How many pages, nine pages?
21 THE WITNESS: Nine pages.
22 MR. BURESH: This one is marked, I mean,
23 everything is clean except for the one page. Let me see
24 if I can get you that one clean page.
25 THE WITNESS: What page is it?
1 MR. BURESH: It would be — or here’s a clean
2 set.
3 MR. DOLAN: Thanks. Mark this as Plaintiff’s
4 next in order, which would be Plaintiff’s 7.
5 MS. DURRELL: You said there’s nine pages of
6 it?
7 THE WITNESS: I think so.
8 (Whereupon, Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 7 was
9 marked for identification.)
10 MR. DOLAN: Q. I’m going to show you a group
11 Exhibit that’s been marked as Plaintiff’s No. 7. It’s a
12 nine-page document. I would like you to look at the first
13 page marked 10/5/89.
14 Did you ever keep any personal journals of any
15 type whatsoever prior to 10/5/89?
16 A. No, I told you that right before lunch,
17 remember?
18 Q. I sometimes re-ask questions to make sure I’ve
19 got a clear answer on this.
20 MS. DURRELL: That’s the document I don’t have,
21 10/5/89.
22 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did you ever keep any notes
23 other than these personal journals regarding the events
24 surrounding the alleged molestation of Ken Smith?
25 A. No.
1 MS. DURRELL: This is 10/20/89. It’s here,
2 sorry.
3 MR. DOLAN: Q. Was there anyone else present
4 with you when you spoke to the police on 10/20/89?
5 A. No.
6 Q. I may have asked you this; did anyone edit
7 these journal entries before you gave them to the police?
8 A. No, can’t you see the typos still in them.
9 Q. About the fourth line down you write — the
10 third line down. “I thought she was being hysterical —
11 after all, God knows she has plenty of reasons to be angry
12 with Walter.”
13 What did you mean by “, God knows she has
14 plenty of reasons to be angry with Walter”?
15 A. Walter always preferred boys to girls. He
16 always favored Patrick over Moira. He favored Moira’s
17 boyfriends over Moira. I think she resented that he
18 didn’t love her because she was a girl.
19 Q. Okay. So prior to Kenny Smith being molested,
20 did you have any understanding that Walter favored Moira’s
21 boyfriends over Moira?
22 A. Moira — Walter favored any boy over Moira.
23 Walter didn’t like girls.
24 Q. You indicate in the next paragraph, “Sure,
25 Walter was acting weird, but Walter always acts weird.”
1 What did you mean by, “Walter was acting weird
2 — “Sure, Walter was acting weird”?
3 A. Walter generally acted paranoid, nervous,
4 twitchy, suspicious, and he was acting that way.
5 Q. Anything else?
6 A. No, I think that about covers it.
7 Q. Did you think that any of Walter’s interactions
8 with children were geared in the sense that you have used
9 the word “weird” here before — strike that.
10 Did you think any of Walter interactions with
11 young boys were “weird”?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You indicate here, “And I certainly didn’t
14 think Walter was stupid enough to molest a child —
15 especially in front of Moira.” What did you mean by that?
16 A. Well —
17 MR. BURESH: Other than what it says. You want
18 her to paraphrase it?
19 MR. DOLAN: Sure, what was she thinking when
20 she wrote that?
21 MR. BURESH: If you recall.
22 THE WITNESS: Well, aside from the idea that I
23 certainly didn’t think Walter was that immoral, on top of
24 that, I didn’t think he was that stupid. I mean, he must
25 have known that Moira was going to object.
1 MR. DOLAN: Q. Down in the later paragraph
2 there you indicate, “I don’t think he wanted to hurt Kenny
3 — I think he just thinks that laws against sex with
4 children are designed to prevent children from having any
5 fun.”
6 When did you come to the understanding that —
7 or the belief that Walter thinks that laws against sex
8 with children are designed to prevent children from having
9 any fun?
10 A. I think it was probably listening to one of his
11 arguments with Marion over NAMBLA. And by the way,
12 hyphen, hyphen is a dash. It’s just the way it’s typed.
13 Q. When did these arguments over NAMBLA occur?
14 A. Over the course of the ’80s.
15 Q. Tell me —
16 A. I think there was one around ’87 because when I
17 was looking for stuff for Officer Harris, I found a
18 canceled check to NAMBLA that looked like it might have
19 been for a book or something, so he had gotten a book from
20 NAMBLA, and if Marion had seen it, that would have sparked
21 an argument.
22 Q. Can you recall what transpired in the argument
23 where you heard Walter saying to her something that led
24 you to believe that the laws against having sex with
25 children are designed to prevent children from having any
1 fun?
2 A. He just seemed to feel that the laws
3 restricting children’s behavior were an infringement of
4 children’s rights.
5 Q. When you say “children’s behavior,” are you
6 talking about children’s sexual behavior?
7 A. Children’s sexual behavior, children’s ability
8 to take drugs, children’s ability to drive cars — I mean,
9 Walter was a nut.
10 Q. And you knew this back in 1987 that he held
11 these beliefs; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, I believe so.
13 Q. Did you hear about — and Marion Zimmer Bradley
14 heard Walter expressing these beliefs back in 1987 as
15 well; is that correct?
16 A. I believe so, yes.
17 Q. And, indeed, she debated these beliefs with
18 him, according to your testimony, right?
19 A. She strongly disagreed, yes.
20 Q. And did he strongly advocate those positions in
21 those arguments with her?
22 A. No, any time she strongly disagreed with him,
23 he shut up and went away.
24 Q. After learning that he held these beliefs in
25 1987, did you do anything to remove him from the premises
1 that you were renting to him?
2 MR. BURESH: Asked and answered.
3 MR. DOLAN: I have never asked this. This just
4 came up now, Scott. I never even knew about this before.
5 MR. BURESH: Didn’t you ask her whether she
6 ever took steps to remove him from the premises at any
7 time?
8 MR. DOLAN: It’s a different question. You
9 can’t block this line of questioning. If you do, I will
10 move for the judge — you’re obstructing me. I am asking
11 her a whole series of separate questions on something that
12 just came up. If you’re going to say asked and answered,
13 this is really questionable as to good faith. I’ll fight
14 this one to the end.
15 MR. BURESH: If the witness has testified that
16 she never took steps to remove him from the premises at
17 any time, then it’s redundant to ask her that same
18 question in light of any other event.
19 MR. DOLAN: I am allowed to ask questions the
20 way I want to ask them, Scott, not the way you want them
21 asked, or if I ask a question, it doesn’t forestall me
22 from asking a different question later on. That is just
23 cross-examination, and you know that, and I know that.
24 MR. BURESH: It’s badgering the witness by
25 asking the same question over and over.
1 MR. DOLAN: Are you instructing her not to
2 answer?
3 MR. BURESH: Yes.
4 MR. DOLAN: Please mark that. We are going to
5 go to the mat on that one.
6 (Whereupon, the previous question was marked
7 for the record.)
8 MR. BURESH: Let me ask the witness a
9 question. Did you ever take steps at any time to remove
10 Walter from the Fulton Street property?
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 MR. BURESH: Okay.
13 MR. DOLAN: Q. Did it concern you that a man
14 who advocated beliefs that laws against sex with children
15 were designed to prevent them from having fun was living
16 in your property?
17 A. I felt there is — I felt, and still feel, that
18 there is a difference between belief and behavior. I did
19 not necessarily equate the one with the other, so, no, it
20 did not concern me. Walter expressed a lot of crazy
21 beliefs.
22 Q. Did you know, around that time in 1987, that
23 Walter also believed children should be allowed to have
24 drugs?
25 A. I think you mean 1987.
1 Q. I did say 1987, didn’t I?
2 A. I thought you said 1997. Yeah, I think I did.
3 Q. Okay. Did it concern you that a man who
4 thought that children should be allowed to have drugs was
5 living on your premises?
6 A. I didn’t think making him move would change his
7 views.
8 Q. Okay. Did you do anything to try to make him
9 change his views?
10 A. I told him I thought he was an idiot.
11 Q. But you continued to allow him to live on your
12 premises, correct?
13 A. Berkeley —
14 MR. BURESH: Objection, argumentative.
15 MR. DOLAN: Are you instructing her not to
16 answer?
17 (Discussion off the record.)
18 THE WITNESS: Berkeley has very strict eviction
19 laws. You can’t evict someone just on their beliefs, or
20 their personal beliefs, if he was not acting on them. I
21 would actually have to prove that he was dealing drugs on
22 the property in order to evict them.
23 MR. DOLAN: Q. Do you ever undertake any
24 investigation to find out whether he was giving drugs to
25 children at that time?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you ever undertake any investigation to
3 find out whether he was acting out his beliefs that
4 children should not be denied the opportunity to have sex?
5 A. I believed he was impotent. I assumed he was
6 not.
7 Q. Did you undertake any investigation to find out
8 whether he was acting out those beliefs on your property?
9 A. No.
10 Q. At any time prior to the molestation of Kenny
11 Smith in 1989, did you undertake any investigation to find
12 out whether Walter Breen was acting out his belief
13 regarding sex with children on your property?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Could you please refer to your 10/8/89 entry.
16 Before we go there, let me just ask you this: The nine
17 pages that are included as Plaintiff’s 7, did you author
18 those?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Are those true and correct copies of the
21 documents that you authored and surrendered to the police?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Let’s turn to 10/8/89.
24 A. Uh-hum.
25 Q. On 10/8/89, were you satisfied beyond any
1 reasonable doubt that Walter was guilty of molesting Ken
2 Smith?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And at that point you — did you take any steps
5 to remove him from your premises?
6 MR. BURESH: Objection. Instruct the witness
7 not to answer.
8 MR. DOLAN: On what basis?
9 MR. BURESH: Asked and answered, argumentative,
10 badgering the witness.
11 MR. DOLAN: Please mark it.
12 (Whereupon, the previous question was marked
13 for the record.)
14 MR. DOLAN: Q. Do you see here where you say,
15 “If it can all be sorted out quietly, that’s fine with
16 me –“; what did you mean by, “If it can all be sorted out
17 quietly”?
18 A. If Walter can plead guilty without Kenny having
19 to testify.
20 Q. You indicate here, “God knows, enough people
21 have been hurt already.” Who were you referring to when
22 you said enough people?
23 A. Kenny, Moira, me, Mary Mason — Marion, who was
24 going to be as soon as she found out — Patrick, and
25 there’s probably others, but those are the ones that come
1 to mind immediately.
2 Q. Did you tell Anodea, Philip and Phyllis not to
3 leave their children with Walter unchaperoned?
4 A. Anodea, yes.
5 Q. Did you tell them that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Who is Anodea?
8 A. Anodea is a friend of mine, and she and Philip
9 have a son together.
10 Q. What is Philip’s last name?
11 A. Wayne.
12 Q. Is that the same Philip that was involved in
13 the group experience we referenced earlier?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Prior to 10/8/89, have you ever warned them
16 about leaving their child alone with Walter?
17 A. Not with Walter, but I did warn them about
18 leaving their child alone with another child molester.
19 Q. Who was that?
20 A. His name was Gary. I forgot his last name. I
21 found out in 1985 that he was a convicted child molester,
22 and Anodea had been dating him, so I talked to Anodea and
23 Philip about it then.
24 Q. Was this fellow a friend of Walter’s?
25 A. No, Walter didn’t know him, as far as I know.
1 Q. Who was Phyllis?
2 A. Phyllis Nelson is a friend of the family. She
3 and Debra and Richard Wheeler lived — at that time lived
4 together, and they had two children, so basically I just
5 called everybody in the immediate circle who had children.
6 Q. Did any of these people say that they thought
7 Walter may have molested their children?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Where do Anodea and Philip live?
10 A. Anodea lives in Sebastopol, I think, and
11 Philip, I think, is in Fremont.
12 Q. What is Anodea’s last name now?
13 A. Judith.
14 Q. And Philip lives where, I’m sorry?
15 A. I think it’s in Fremont.
16 Q. What was the name of their child?
17 A. Alex.
18 Q. Where does Alex live?
19 A. With Anodea.
20 Q. And who is Phyllis?
21 A. Phyllis Nelson. I just told you.
22 Q. Where does she live?
23 A. They were living together in a house in Mar
24 Vista.
25 Q. Do you know where in Mar Vista?
1 A. Walgrove Avenue. And I understand that she’s
2 recently gotten a condominium and moved out, but I don’t
3 know where.
4 Q. What was their child’s name?
5 A. They have two daughters, Sarah and Rose.
6 Q. Do you know where they live?
7 A. Sarah, I believe, is at Reed College in Oregon,
8 and Rose is still home with her mother.
9 Q. Did you think Walter was molesting Sterling 10
10 years prior to 10/8/89?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you ever go to Marion and say you thought
13 that Walter was molesting Sterling?
14 A. We went over all this this morning. Yes, I
15 talked to Marion after I found the letter to Dr. Morin,
16 and she said Walter was impotent, so at that point I
17 naturally believed that Walter was not molesting Sterling,
18 and I talked to Sterling later and Sterling —
19 MR. BURESH: It’s okay. We did talk about it
20 this morning.
21 MR. DOLAN: Q. You indicate here at the end of
22 this, “I’m really angry about all of this; I feel I’ve
23 been used to help cover up something I would (underlined)
24 never willfully have countenanced.” What did you mean
25 that you felt that you had been used to cover up
1 something?
2 A. Well, as you have no doubt heard, despite the
3 fact that I was brought up to believe that sex belongs
4 within the bounds of holy matrimony, when I moved out to
5 Berkeley I bought into “the sex is okay as a recreational
6 activity between consenting adults lifestyle,” and I
7 outgrew that.
8 By 1985 people were calling me a prude and
9 complaining that I was too straightlaced. So, I had been
10 cleaning up my act and my reputation, and I have been
11 celibate for years at this point, and I had been working
12 very hard to become the kind of human being I could be
13 proud of again, and now here is a member of my extended
14 family doing something so horrendously horrible, and I
15 felt like it was damaging to my reputation.
16 Q. How were you used to help cover up something?
17 MR. BURESH: Other than what she has already
18 testified to?
19 MR. DOLAN: I didn’t hear anything about that.
20 MR. BURESH: Well, in your opinion, I’m sure.
21 MR. DOLAN: Q. How were you used to help cover
22 up something other than what you have testified to
23 already?
24 A. Other than that, I wasn’t.
25 Q. How does that, in your mind, constitute a
1 cover-up?
2 A. At the time I wrote this I was obviously very
3 upset. I was feeling sick, horrified, disgusted,
4 homicidal. I wanted to kill Walter, and I felt that he
5 had used our association, tenuous as it was, as a cloak
6 for his activities. I was overreacting.
7 Q. You indicate here, and earlier in that
8 paragraph, that Marion said he has been impotent since
9 Moira was two-years old?
10 A. Uh-hum.
11 Q. “I didn’t think he was gay; I thought he was
12 celibate. Why shouldn’t I think that?” And then several
13 lines down you say that you feel you have been used to
14 help cover up something.
15 Did you believe that Marion had deliberately
16 deceived you as to Walter being impotent?
17 A. Absolutely not. She believed that, no
18 question.
19 Q. Did you believe that Marion ever withheld any
20 information from you regarding Walter’s sexual activity
21 with children?
22 A. Well, I don’t believe she described to me every
23 accusation that was ever made because I don’t imagine she
24 considered most of them relevant.
25 Q. The question was —
1 A. Marion and I generally did not discuss Walter’s
2 sex life. Why should we have?
3 MR. BURESH: Listen to the question.
4 MR. DOLAN: Q. The question is, do you think
5 that Marion withheld information from you regarding
6 accusations that Walter had molested children?
7 MR. BURESH: I have got to object on the basis
8 that it’s uncertain as to what the word “withheld” means,
9 as opposed — it’s a failure to disclose or withholding of
10 information.
11 MR. DOLAN: Q. Do you think Marion knew about
12 other accusations of child molestation about Walter that
13 she hadn’t shared with you as of 10/8/89?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you have any understanding, as you sit here
16 today, about how many episodes or accusations against
17 Walter Marion had known about that she had not shared with
18 you as of 10/8/89?
19 A. No, I don’t know for sure that she did not tell
20 me about some. I simply assumed that in the — let’s see,
21 15 years that she knew him before I knew him, she probably
22 heard a few.
23 Q. Okay. Let’s go to 10/9/89. It says, “Marion
24 always said she’d divorce Walter if he did this again.”
25 Did you write that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Had Marion told you that she would divorce
3 Walter if he did this again?
4 A. When she was sitting in the car she said, “That
5 does it. I always said I would divorce him if he did this
6 again.”
7 Q. Now, this was a statement made verbatim to you
8 from Marion Zimmer Bradley, correct?
9 A. To the best of my recollection, yes.
10 Q. Do you know who she had always made that
11 statement to before, as she described it?
12 A. I assumed either to herself or to Walter.
13 Q. Did you ask her anything like, “Wait, you mean
14 you had told him if he did this again you would divorce
15 him?”
16 A. No, I did not ask her. She was in the middle
17 of a rant, I mean, he had — we had just told her her
18 husband was a child molester. She was furious. She was
19 shouting.
20 Q. And you indicated in 10/8/89 that she seemed to
21 think that he had molested both [Victim X] and [other name]; is that
22 correct?
23 A. I’m sorry, where are we?
24 Q. 10/9/89, next sentence?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You indicate in the next part of that sentence
2 that she was rather startled when you told her about the
3 letter to Dr. Morin about Sterling; hadn’t you already
4 discussed this with her at the time that you read the
5 letter?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you have any understanding as to why she
8 appeared to be “rather startled”?
9 A. Probably because ten years had intervened
10 between the two incidents. Not everybody remembers things
11 accurately for 10 years.
12 Q. We are going to come back to some of these
13 things. I just want to cover some of them before we break
14 today.
15 Let’s turn to 10/14/89. The last paragraph you
16 say, “Still, when I think of the things for the past 10
17 years we simply accepted as parts of Walter’s normal
18 behavior, I want to kill myself.”
19 What “things” were you referring to?
20 A. His habit of sitting around with children on
21 his lap at conventions; his hanging around with his kids
22 and their friends; his having friends who were teenage
23 boys. A lot of his friends were like in the 15- to
24 22-year-old range.
25 Q. Any other things?
1 A. No, I think that’s about it.
2 Q. How about any activity of drugs, were those
3 included in those things that you were thinking of that he
4 had done in the past ten years that you accepted as part
5 of his normal behavior?
6 A. I wasn’t thinking about drugs at the time I
7 wrote this.
8 Q. Did you think it was awkward that most of
9 Walter’s friends were between the ages of 15 and 22?
10 MR. BURESH: Objection, vague. I don’t know
11 what you mean by the word “awkward.”
12 MR. DOLAN: Q. Do you think it was unusual,
13 different, strange, bizarre, any of those?
14 A. Well, it would be unusual for a normal man, but
15 Walter had the emotional maturity of the average 15 year
16 old, so it seemed to me that he was seeking friends of his
17 emotional age.
18 Q. Were you ever concerned that Walter was
19 sexually attracted to any of these boys between the ages
20 of 15 and 22?
21 A. No, I thought he was impotent.
22 Q. Well, I’m not asking whether he was sexually
23 involved, but whether he was sexually attracted to them?
24 A. If you’re impotent, aren’t you not sexually
25 attracted?
1 Q. It doesn’t appear to be in Walter’s case, but,
2 I mean, you’re asking my opinion now, and I don’t think
3 you want that. It appears that he was very active.
4 A. It was my belief that if you are impotent,
5 you’re not sexually attracted.
6 MR. BURESH: Off the record.
7 (Discussion off the record.)
8 MR. DOLAN: Back on, please.
9 Q. Did you write in here this next part about
10 someone saying they wouldn’t let Ian stay overnight unless
11 you or Marion were there because they had heard Ian when
12 he was sitting on Walter’s lap on the stairs saying, “Stop
13 it. That tickles. Don’t touch me there”?
14 A. Yes, I wrote that.
15 Q. What were you referring to about that?
16 A. To the best of my recollection now, what I was
17 doing was confusing together was Tracy saying that Walter
18 wasn’t adult enough to take care of children unsupervised
19 and Moira’s telling me that Tracy had said that she had
20 heard Ian saying, “Don’t touch me there. That tickles.”
21 Q. So it’s your testimony that you were confusing
22 something Moira said to you about something that you had
23 heard regarding Ian not being able to stay there overnight
24 unless you were there because Walter was too immature; is
25 that correct?
1 A. My testimony is —
2 MR. BURESH: Before you testify, I want to hear
3 the answer read back, please.
4 (Whereupon, the record was read by the
5 reporter.)
6 MR. DOLAN: Q. Look to 10/16/89. Do you see
7 where you say, “The divorce is going to make a lot of
8 extra work, but it beats losing the house in a messy
9 lawsuit.” At the end of the first second full paragraph?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did someone tell you that there was a potential
12 that you could lose the house in a messy lawsuit?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you believe that if there was a lawsuit you
15 might lose the house in a messy lawsuit?
16 A. No. It’s — we were sensitive about losing the
17 house because of Walter’s activity because Marion had
18 already lost one house because of Walter’s failure to pay
19 bills. I would find them under the desk blotter and he
20 would say he paid them, and they lost the house, and
21 Marion never forgave him for that, so she was
22 hypersensitive on the subject.
23 Q. So did you have any concerns when you wrote
24 this that Walter’s molestation of children might lead to
25 losing the house in a messy lawsuit?
1 A. I suppose I thought it was a possibility.
2 Q. I asked you earlier whether that was one of the
3 reasons why — that prompted the divorce. Do you wish to
4 at all change your testimony after reading this document?
5 A. I don’t know exactly why Marion divorced him.
6 It was her decision and not mine. My impression was that
7 she was just totally furious with him.
8 Q. Were you present when Marion talked to Camille
9 about her divorce?
10 MS. DURRELL: I think that’s been asked and
11 answered.
12 MR. DOLAN: I don’t think so.
13 MR. BURESH: It has. Go ahead. I’ll object.
14 Asked and answered. Go ahead and answer.
15 MR. DOLAN: Q. Were you in the room when they
16 were talking about it?
17 A. Some of the time, yes.
18 Q. Was the issue of Marion’s liability because of
19 Walter’s activities discussed during that time that they
20 were talking about the divorce?
21 MR. BURESH: I’ll object on the basis of the
22 attorney-client privilege. I will instruct the witness
23 not to answer.
24 MR. DOLAN: She wasn’t getting a divorce. She
25 was sitting there in the room with them. She wasn’t the
1 client. There’s no — that’s totally waived.
2 MR. BURESH: Camille was the lawyer for the
3 Marion Zimmer Bradley Enterprises.
4 THE WITNESS: Camille actually was my lawyer as
5 well.
6 MR. BURESH: She’s her lawyer as well.
7 MR. DOLAN: Q. Were you getting divorced?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Were you there seeking information about the
10 divorce?
11 A. No.
12 Q. With you there seeking information about
13 Marion’s divorce?
14 A. I was there lending Marion moral support, I
15 guess.
16 Q. So you weren’t there seeking legal advice that
17 day were you, personally?
18 A. As Marion’s secretary, I was.
19 Q. But you personally weren’t sitting there
20 looking for legal advice for your own person, Elisabeth
21 Waters, that day when you were in Camille LeGrand’s
22 office, were you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. What did Marion and Camille LeGrand talk about
25 regarding Walter’s behavior as it related to the divorce?
1 MR. BURESH: Same objection, same instruction.
2 I will research this issue in the intervening days between
3 this deposition and the next deposition. I still think
4 it’s attorney/client privilege.
5 MR. DOLAN: It’s not.
6 MR. BURESH: I understand.
7 MR. DOLAN: She’s sitting there just like you
8 or somebody else sitting there. Mark it, please.
9 (Whereupon, the previous question was marked
10 for the record.)
11 MR. DOLAN: Q. You state that your mother was
12 surprised that Marion was going to divorce Walter. Do you
13 recall having conversations with your mother about this?
14 A. Uh-hum.
15 Q. Is your mother still alive?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. She lives now in Stamford?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. On Cascade Road?
20 A. Yes, with my father.
21 Q. What is her name?
22 A. Elaine.
23 Q. Elaine Waters?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And what is their address on Cascade Road?
1 A. 379.
2 Q. I may get a trip home out of this.
3 A. Are you planning on going to question my
4 parents?
5 MR. BURESH: We’ll fly them out here.
6 MR. DOLAN: Not Connecticut.
7 Q. You indicate in the next sentence, “What did
8 she expect — that Marion was going to say, ‘You molested
9 a 12 year old; that’s nice dear. What would you like for
10 dinner?’” You wrote that, correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you tell your mother that Marion was
13 divorcing Walter because he molested a 12-year-old boy?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Who is the Beth that’s referenced in this
16 letter?
17 A. Elizabeth Rousseau.
18 Q. There’s some discussion in the last paragraph
19 about, “And Beth said something about Ian today — and I
20 can’t remember exactly what it was. (I guess I’m still
21 trying to block some of this), but it sounded like Officer
22 Harris should talk to him. And she also now thinks it
23 wasn’t Kenny in the hot tub with Walter — it was little
24 Sean.”
25 What episode are you talking about in the hot
1 tub?
2 A. Beth and her boyfriend were in the hot tub with
3 Walter and some kid one night.
4 Q. Do you know approximately when?
5 A. Nope.
6 Q. Was it before or after the report of the
7 molestation of Ken Smith?
8 A. Before.
9 Q. Did Beth ever tell you that prior to 10/16/89,
10 this being in the hot tub with Walter and a young boy?
11 A. It was prior to 10/16/89, but I think it was
12 after — I think it was sometime in September or October
13 when we were talking about Walter’s behavior.
14 Q. What do you recall Beth telling you about this
15 episode of a young boy being in the hot tub with Walter?
16 A. That she and her boyfriend and Walter and some
17 kid were in the hot tub and Walter was saying to the kid,
18 “Feel how good the jets feel on your skin.”
19 Q. Was he saying, “See how good the jets feel on
20 your skin,” or “Feel how good they feel on your legs”? Do
21 you recall if that was the comment?
22 A. Since I wasn’t there and I don’t remember
23 exactly what Beth said.
24 Q. Do you recall anything else of Beth’s
25 description of what happened in the hot tub?
1 A. No, just that she said it made her uneasy.
2 Q. Did Beth tell you that at any time prior to
3 Walter’s identification of — strike that.
4 Did Beth tell you any of this prior to Moira
5 reporting Walter to the police in 1989?
6 A. No, it was after.
7 Q. Beth was a resident of the house on Prince
8 Street; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. This hot tub you’re referring to is on Prince
11 Street?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you ever investigate any further to find
14 out if anybody was molested in that hot tub by Walter?
15 Please let the record reflect that the
16 witness is laughing.
17 A. I’m sorry, it’s just that you haven’t seen the
18 property and the hot tub. The hot tub is fully visible
19 right as you come in the back gate, from the porch of the
20 office, from the kitchen, from the living room, from the
21 room that, I think, was then Marion’s office and is now
22 Marion’s bedroom.
23 Philip and I were making out in the hot tub one
24 day, and we got caught, I mean, there’s no expectation of
25 privacy in that hot tub. It’s not a good place to molest
1 anybody.
2 Q. Okay. My question was, did you ever undertake
3 any investigation to find out whether or not Walter had
4 ever molested either Sean or Kenny in that hot tub?
5 A. No, because I thought the idea was totally
6 silly.
7 Q. Did you think that Beth was lying to you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Then why did you think it was silly?
10 A. There was a difference between sitting in a hot
11 tub saying, “see how good the water feels” and sexually
12 molesting somebody.
13 Q. Beth indicated it made her uncomfortable,
14 correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you think Beth was a prude?
17 A. I don’t know that I ever thought about it much
18 one way or the other.
19 Q. Who was Beth’s boyfriend?
20 A. I don’t remember.
21 Q. To your knowledge was Walter ever in the hot
22 tub with any other young children other than this child
23 identified by Beth?
24 MR. BURESH: Other than what she has already
25 testified to.
1 MR. DOLAN: We went over that this morning.
2 MR. DOLAN: Well now, this morning she said she
3 was unaware of him ever being in the hot tub with any
4 young children. Now we’ve seen a document which shows he
5 was in the hot tub.
6 MR. BURESH: Well, you’re misstating her
7 testimony.
8 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I did so say that he was in
9 the hot tub with young children.
10 MR. DOLAN: Q. You said somebody’s baby.
11 Philip’s baby?
12 A. Alex, and Moira, and Patrick, and Fiona, and
13 Eric Worth. There’s a whole bunch of people who came over
14 and used the hot tub.
15 Q. Was it the policy to use the hot tub generally
16 naked?
17 A. Grown-ups were usually naked. A lot of the kids
18 who were going through the self-conscious stage wore
19 bathing suits. The rule was you had to be sure to wash
20 the soap out of the bathing suit before you got in the hot
21 tub so you didn’t clog the filter.
22 Q. Did you ever hear Marion tell her children that
23 nudity was an appropriate method of presentation around
24 the house?
25 A. No, by the time I moved out there, most people
1 wore clothes most of the time.
2 Q. Do you ever talk to Jane Reynolds Conger, Ph.D.
3 regarding Moira’s condition?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you ever talk to a psychiatrist regarding
6 her condition?
7 A. I spoke briefly to Joan Sandberg when I was
8 visiting Moira at the mental hospital down in southern
9 California, but I don’t recall that we were really
10 discussing Moira’s condition much.
11 Q. Did you ultimately tell Walter if he didn’t
12 resign from his position in Marion Zimmer Bradley
13 Enterprises that you were going to terminate him?
14 A. Yes, for just cause, because at that point he
15 was in jail and could no longer work for us.
16 MR. BURESH: It’s after 5:00 now. I would like
17 to adjourn.
18 MR. DOLAN: Okay.
19
20 (Whereupon, the deposition
21 concluded at 5:03 p.m.)
22 __________________________
23 ELISABETH WATERS
24
25
1 STATE OF CALIFORNIA )
)
2 COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO )
3
4
5 I, Karla Shallenberger, do hereby certify:
6 That I am a Certified Shorthand Reporter, License No.
7 10752 of the State of California; that I was duly licensed
8 Shorthand Reporter;
9 That on the 16th day of October, 1997 I fully, truly
10 and correctly took down in shorthand writing all of the
11 proceedings had and all of the testimony given in said
12 matter;
13 That I thereafter truly, fully and correctly
14 transcribed the same into typewriting, and that the
15 foregoing pages, 1 through 228 inclusive, are a full, true
16 and correct transcript of my said notes taken at the time
17 and place therein stated.
18 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand
19 this 9th day of November 1997.
20
Karla Shallenberger
21 Certified Shorthand Reporter
License No. 10752
22
23
24
25
SHALLENBERGER REPORTING SERVICES – (415) 771-1988
228
Note: This page originally appeared at http://sff.net/people/stephen.goldin/mzb/Lisa_Depo.html, but that subsite is permanently offline. Stephen Goldin’s new site is here, but it does not contain the MZB tree (that I found). Apart from bringing the code up to HTML5, adjusting URLs to my own naming system. What precedes the rule above this paragraph is the deposition in unaltered form.