Sounds Like Weird
This is a mirror of Stephen Goldin’s pages from SFF.net about Marion Zimmer Bradley. More notes after the deposition excerpts.
Q. On 10/8/89, were you satisfied beyond any reasonable doubt that Walter was guilty of molesting Ken Smith?
A. Yes.
Q. In October of 1989 when you told Marion that Walter may have molested Kenny, she told you that she thought there was a possibility that Walter may have also molested [Victim X]?
A. When we told her that Walter had molested Kenny — by then we were pretty sure — she seemed to think that if Walter was capable of molesting Kenny then perhaps he had also molested [Victim X].
Q. Can you tell me with specificity what happened in that conversation in 1989 regarding [Victim X]?
A. Raul and I picked her up at the airport, and while she was gone we had found out that Walter really had molested Kenny, so on the way home from the airport we told her, and she was very upset, and she said that if Walter was capable of that, then maybe he molested [Victim X] and [other name] as well.
Q. Anything else that she said about that?
A. That she was going to divorce him.
Q. Anything else?
A. I think that’s about it.
Q. Did she give you any indication of whether she had ever told Walter that if he did this again she was going to divorce him?
A. She said something about, she had always said that if he did this again, she would divorce him, but I’m not sure whether she was talking to him or to herself.
Q. You heard her say the words, though, “If he did this again, I was going to divorce him”?
A. My best recollection is that she said,” I always said if he did this again I would divorce him.”
Q. Had you ever heard her say that before?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever heard her say that after that time that she was riding in the car on the way home?
A. No.
Q. Approximately what date is this date that you picked her up at the airport?
A. I believe it was October 9th, 1989.
Later in that same deposition:
Q. When you were first made aware that there might have been some sort of a problem with Walter molesting Ken Smith?
A. When I talked to Mary at the WorldCon.
Q. Had you heard from Moira, or anybody before, that there had been a report made to the police?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you first hear that there might have been some molestation of Ken Smith?
A. Well, I heard that Moira had told the therapist who told the police sometime in July.
Q. How did you learn that?
A. I don’t remember, somebody must have — I think maybe Marion told me.
Q. Did Moira ever call you directly to tell you that?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Do you ever recall Moira trying to get in touch with Marion to talk about this issue and you preventing her from doing so?
A. If Moira called Marion and I didn’t let her talk to Marion, it would have been because Marion wasn’t home. I was not in the habit of coming between the children and their mother.
Q. So is it your testimony that you first heard about the molestation of Ken Smith from Marion Zimmer Bradley?
A. To the best of my belief, I first heard about the allegation that Kenny had been molested from Marion, yes.
Q. Do you know how Marion had learned of it?
A. From Moira, I assume.
Q. Please don’t assume.
A. Sorry.
Q. Do you have any knowledge as to how Marion
learned about this?
A. I believe she said Moira had told her.
Q. Did you ever talk to Moira directly about the report of molestation of Ken Smith at any time prior to first speaking to the police about it — you first speaking to the police about it?
A. I wrote to her, but I didn’t speak to her. She moved, and I didn’t have her phone number, and she wasn’t speaking to me.
Q. Did you say the first time you ever talked to Mary Mason about it was at the WorldCon?
A. Aside from the phone call telling her that the police wanted to talk to Kenny. The first time I talked to her about the actual molestation was at the WorldCon, yes.
Q. When did you talk to her about the police wanting to talk to Kenny?
A. That must have been sometime in July.
Q. Who would you have spoken to regarding the molestation prior to talking to Mary Mason in July?
A. I really don’t remember. All I remember is that somebody told me that the police wanted to talk to Kenny, and since I’m the person in the family who’s organized enough to be able to look in the SFWA directory which had Mary’s phone number, I got delegated to call Mary and tell her the police were looking for her kid.
Q. Did you have any understanding is to why the police were looking for her at that time?
A. Because Moira said that Walter was molesting him.
Q. And you learned that Moira said that Walter was molesting him from whom?
A. I believe it was from Marion.
Q. And who did you learn — who was it that you learned from — who was it —
A. From whom.
Q. — from whom did you learn that the police wanted to talk to Kenny?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. Had you talked to the police at that time at that point prior to calling Mary Mason?
A. No.
Q. How did you know that the police wanted to talk to Mary Mason or Kenny?
A. I believe Marion must have told me.
Still later in that same deposition:
Q. Okay. Let’s go to 10/9/89. It says, “Marion always said she’d divorce Walter if he did this again.” Did you write that?
A. Yes.
Q. Had Marion told you that she would divorce Walter if he did this again?
A. When she was sitting in the car she said, “That does it. I always said I would divorce him if he did this again.”
Q. Now, this was a statement made verbatim to you from Marion Zimmer Bradley, correct?
A. To the best of my recollection, yes.
Q. Do you know who she had always made that statement to before, as she described it?
A. I assumed either to herself or to Walter.
Q. Did you ask her anything like, “Wait, you mean you had told him if he did this again you would divorce him?”
A. No, I did not ask her. She was in the middle of a rant, I mean, he had — we had just told her her husband was a child molester. She was furious. She was shouting.
Shortly before going to the police to be questioned, Ms. Waters wrote down her thoughts on the matter in a series of journal entries.
Q. I’m going to show you a group Exhibit that’s been marked as Plaintiff’s No. 7. It’s a nine-page document. I would like you to look at the first page marked 10/5/89. Did you ever keep any notes other than these personal journals regarding the events surrounding the alleged molestation of Ken Smith?
A. No.
Q. Was there anyone else present with you when you spoke to the police on 10/20/89?
A. No.
Q. About the fourth line down you write — the third line down. “I thought she was being hysterical — after all, God knows she has plenty of reasons to be angry with Walter.” What did you mean by “, God knows she has plenty of reasons to be angry with Walter”?
A. Walter always preferred boys to girls. He always favored Patrick over Moira. He favored Moira’s boyfriends over Moira. I think she resented that he didn’t love her because she was a girl.
Q. Okay. So prior to Kenny Smith being molested, did you have any understanding that Walter favored Moira’s boyfriends over Moira?
A. Moira — Walter favored any boy over Moira. Walter didn’t like girls.
Q. You indicate in the next paragraph, “Sure, Walter was acting weird, but Walter always acts weird.” What did you mean by, “Walter was acting weird — “Sure, Walter was acting weird”?
A. Walter generally acted paranoid, nervous, twitchy, suspicious, and he was acting that way.
Q. Anything else?
A. No, I think that about covers it.
Q. Did you think any of Walter interactions with young boys were “weird”?
A. No.
Q. You indicate here, “And I certainly didn’t think Walter was stupid enough to molest a child — especially in front of Moira.” What did you mean by that?
A. Well, aside from the idea that I certainly didn’t think Walter was that immoral, on top of that, I didn’t think he was that stupid. I mean, he must have known that Moira was going to object.
Q. Down in the later paragraph there you indicate, “I don’t think he wanted to hurt Kenny — I think he just thinks that laws against sex with children are designed to prevent children from having any fun.” When did you come to the understanding that — or the belief that Walter thinks that laws against sex with children are designed to prevent children from having any fun?
A. I think it was probably listening to one of his arguments with Marion over NAMBLA.
Q. When did these arguments over NAMBLA occur?
A. I think there was one around ’87 because when I was looking for stuff for Officer Harris, I found a canceled check to NAMBLA that looked like it might have been for a book or something, so he had gotten a book from NAMBLA, and if Marion had seen it, that would have sparked an argument.
Q. Can you recall what transpired in the argument where you heard Walter saying to her something that led you to believe that the laws against having sex with children are designed to prevent children from having any fun?
A. He just seemed to feel that the laws restricting children’s behavior were an infringement of children’s rights.
Q. When you say “children’s behavior,” are you talking about children’s sexual behavior?
A. Children’s sexual behavior, children’s ability to take drugs, children’s ability to drive cars — I mean, Walter was a nut.
Q. And you knew this back in 1987 that he held these beliefs; is that correct?
A. Yes, I believe so.
Q. Did you hear about — and Marion Zimmer Bradley heard Walter expressing these beliefs back in 1987 as well; is that correct?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. And, indeed, she debated these beliefs with him, according to your testimony, right?
A. She strongly disagreed, yes.
Q. And did he strongly advocate those positions in those arguments with her?
A. No, any time she strongly disagreed with him, he shut up and went away.
Q. Do you see here where you say, “If it can all be sorted out quietly, that’s fine with me –“; what did you mean by, “If it can all be sorted out quietly”?
A. If Walter can plead guilty without Kenny having to testify.
Q. You indicate here, “God knows, enough people have been hurt already.” Who were you referring to when you said enough people?
A. Kenny, Moira, me, Mary Mason — Marion, who was going to be as soon as she found out — Patrick, and there’s probably others, but those are the ones that come to mind immediately.
Q. You indicate here at the end of this, “I’m really angry about all of this; I feel I’ve been used to help cover up something I would (underlined) never willfully have countenanced.” What did you mean that you felt that you had been used to cover up something?
A. Well, as you have no doubt heard, despite the fact that I was brought up to believe that sex belongs within the bounds of holy matrimony, when I moved out to Berkeley I bought into “the sex is okay as a recreational activity between consenting adults lifestyle,” and I outgrew that. By 1985 people were calling me a prude and complaining that I was too straightlaced. So, I had been cleaning up my act and my reputation, and I have been celibate for years at this point, and I had been working very hard to become the kind of human being I could be proud of again, and now here is a member of my extended family doing something so horrendously horrible, and I felt like it was damaging to my reputation.
Q. How were you used to help cover up something other than what you have testified to already?
A. Other than that, I wasn’t.
Q. How does that, in your mind, constitute a cover-up?
A. At the time I wrote this I was obviously very upset. I was feeling sick, horrified, disgusted, homicidal. I wanted to kill Walter, and I felt that he had used our association, tenuous as it was, as a cloak for his activities. I was overreacting.
Q. You indicate here, and earlier in that paragraph, that Marion said he has been impotent since Moira was two-years old?
A. Uh-hum.
Q. “I didn’t think he was gay; I thought he was celibate. Why shouldn’t I think that?” And then several lines down you say that you feel you have been used to help cover up something. Did you believe that Marion had deliberately deceived you as to Walter being impotent?
A. Absolutely not. She believed that, no question.
Q. Did you believe that Marion ever withheld any information from you regarding Walter’s sexual activity with children?
A. Well, I don’t believe she described to me every accusation that was ever made because I don’t imagine she considered most of them relevant.
Q. Do you think Marion knew about other accusations of child molestation about Walter that she hadn’t shared with you as of 10/8/89?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any understanding, as you sit here today, about how many episodes or accusations against Walter Marion had known about that she had not shared with you as of 10/8/89?
A. No, I don’t know for sure that she did not tell me about some. I simply assumed that in the — let’s see, 15 years that she knew him before I knew him, she probably heard a few.
Q. Okay. Let’s go to 10/9/89. It says, “Marion always said she’d divorce Walter if he did this again.” Did you write that?
A. Yes.
Q. Had Marion told you that she would divorce Walter if he did this again?
A. When she was sitting in the car she said, “That does it. I always said I would divorce him if he did this again.”
Q. Now, this was a statement made verbatim to you from Marion Zimmer Bradley, correct?
A. To the best of my recollection, yes.
Q. Do you know who she had always made that statement to before, as she described it?
A. I assumed either to herself or to Walter.
Q. Did you ask her anything like, “Wait, you mean you had told him if he did this again you would divorce him?”
A. No, I did not ask her. She was in the middle of a rant, I mean, he had — we had just told her her husband was a child molester. She was furious. She was shouting.
Q. And you indicated in 10/8/89 that she seemed to think that he had molested both [Victim X] and [other name]; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You indicate in the next part of that sentence that she was rather startled when you told her about the letter to Dr. Morin about Sterling; hadn’t you already discussed this with her at the time that you read the letter?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any understanding as to why she appeared to be “rather startled”?
A. Probably because ten years had intervened between the two incidents. Not everybody remembers things accurately for 10 years.
Q. Let’s turn to 10/14/89. The last paragraph you say, “Still, when I think of the things for the past 10 years we simply accepted as parts of Walter’s normal behavior, I want to kill myself.” What “things” were you referring to?
A. His habit of sitting around with children on his lap at conventions; his hanging around with his kids and their friends; his having friends who were teenage boys. A lot of his friends were like in the 15- to 22-year-old range.
Q. Any other things?
A. No, I think that’s about it.
Q. How about any activity of drugs, were those included in those things that you were thinking of that he had done in the past ten years that you accepted as part of his normal behavior?
A. I wasn’t thinking about drugs at the time I wrote this.
Q. Did you think it was awkward that most of Walter’s friends were between the ages of 15 and 22?
A. Well, it would be unusual for a normal man, but Walter had the emotional maturity of the average 15 year old, so it seemed to me that he was seeking friends of his emotional age.
Q. Did you write in here this next part about someone saying they wouldn’t let Ian stay overnight unless you or Marion were there because they had heard Ian when he was sitting on Walter’s lap on the stairs saying, “Stop it. That tickles. Don’t touch me there”?
A. Yes, I wrote that.
Q. What were you referring to about that?
A. To the best of my recollection now, what I was doing was confusing together was Tracy saying that Walter wasn’t adult enough to take care of children unsupervised and Moira’s telling me that Tracy had said that she had heard Ian saying, “Don’t touch me there. That tickles.”
Q. Look to 10/16/89. Do you see where you say, “The divorce is going to make a lot of extra work, but it beats losing the house in a messy lawsuit.” At the end of the first second full paragraph?
A. Yes.
Q. Did someone tell you that there was a potential that you could lose the house in a messy lawsuit?
A. No.
Q. Did you believe that if there was a lawsuit you might lose the house in a messy lawsuit?
A. No. It’s — we were sensitive about losing the house because of Walter’s activity because Marion had already lost one house because of Walter’s failure to pay bills. I would find them under the desk blotter and he would say he paid them, and they lost the house, and Marion never forgave him for that, so she was hypersensitive on the subject.
Q. So did you have any concerns when you wrote this that Walter’s molestation of children might lead to losing the house in a messy lawsuit?
A. I suppose I thought it was a possibility.
Q. You state that your mother was surprised that Marion was going to divorce Walter. Do you recall having conversations with your mother about this?
A. Uh-hum.
Q. You indicate in the next sentence, “What did she expect — that Marion was going to say, ‘You molested a 12 year old; that’s nice dear. What would you like for dinner?’” You wrote that, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you tell your mother that Marion was divorcing Walter because he molested a 12-year-old boy?
A. Yes.
Q. Who is the Beth that’s referenced in this letter?
A. Elizabeth Rousseau.
Q. There’s some discussion in the last paragraph about, “And Beth said something about Ian today — and I can’t remember exactly what it was. (I guess I’m still trying to block some of this), but it sounded like Officer Harris should talk to him. And she also now thinks it wasn’t Kenny in the hot tub with Walter — it was little Sean.” What episode are you talking about in the hot tub?
A. Beth and her boyfriend were in the hot tub with Walter and some kid one night.
Q. Do you know approximately when?
A. Nope.
Q. Was it before or after the report of the molestation of Ken Smith?
A. Before.
Q. Did Beth ever tell you that prior to 10/16/89, this being in the hot tub with Walter and a young boy?
A. It was prior to 10/16/89, but I think it was after — I think it was sometime in September or October when we were talking about Walter’s behavior.
Q. What do you recall Beth telling you about this episode of a young boy being in the hot tub with Walter?
A. That she and her boyfriend and Walter and some kid were in the hot tub and Walter was saying to the kid, “Feel how good the jets feel on your skin.”
Q. Was he saying, “See how good the jets feel on your skin,” or “Feel how good they feel on your legs”? Do you recall if that was the comment?
A. Since I wasn’t there and I don’t remember exactly what Beth said.
Q. Do you recall anything else of Beth’s description of what happened in the hot tub?
A. No, just that she said it made her uneasy.
Q. Did Beth tell you any of this prior to Moira reporting Walter to the police in 1989?
A. No, it was after.
Q. Beth was a resident of the house on Prince Street; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. This hot tub you’re referring to is on Prince Street?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever investigate any further to find out if anybody was molested in that hot tub by Walter? Please let the record reflect that the witness is laughing.
A. I’m sorry, it’s just that you haven’t seen the property and the hot tub. The hot tub is fully visible right as you come in the back gate, from the porch of the office, from the kitchen, from the living room, from the room that, I think, was then Marion’s office and is now Marion’s bedroom. Philip and I were making out in the hot tub one day, and we got caught, I mean, there’s no expectation of privacy in that hot tub. It’s not a good place to molest anybody.
Q. Okay. My question was, did you ever undertake any investigation to find out whether or not Walter had ever molested either Sean or Kenny in that hot tub?
A. No, because I thought the idea was totally silly.
Q. Did you think that Beth was lying to you?
A. No.
Q. Then why did you think it was silly?
A. There was a difference between sitting in a hot tub saying, “see how good the water feels” and sexually molesting somebody.
Q. Beth indicated it made her uncomfortable, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you think Beth was a prude?
A. I don’t know that I ever thought about it much one way or the other.
Q. Now, you indicated that Moira also had told you at some point that she had been raped by her father when she was five; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. When did she tell you that?
A. After the investigation with Kenny started.
Q. What did she tell you about suffering rape at the hands of her father?
A. She said that she was five years old, and it was his birthday and that he said she was his birthday present, and he raped her.
Q. When did she tell you that, approximately what time frame, as best you can, month and year?
A. October, November. I don’t know. Sometime in ’89.
Q. And did you do anything to investigate the truthfulness of that statement?
A. I asked Walter.
Q. What did Walter tell you?
A. He denied it.
Q. Please tell me the full substance of the conversation as best you can recall?
A. I asked if it was true that he raped Moira when she was five, and he said, “No, of course not,” and that she was a liar, and I said,” But isn’t that the period of your life you don’t remember much of? ” And he said, “yes.”
Q. Did you ever ask Marion about Moira allegations that Walter had raped her?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever discuss Moira’s allegation that Walter had raped her with Marion Zimmer Bradley?
A. I don’t think so.
Q. Do you have any information that would pertain to Marion Zimmer Bradley having any sexual interaction with Moira Stern?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever heard that issue discussed at any time?
A. I have heard Moira say some things about it.
Q. What have you heard Moira say about it?
A. She said that one time her mother fondled her breasts while she was in the shower.
Q. Anything else?
A. That Moira said to me, no.
Q. Okay. Did you ever ask Marion if any of that was true?
A. Yes.
Q. What did Marion say?
A. She said that children before the age of puberty didn’t have erogenous zones.
Q. Anything else she said to you?
A. No.
Q. When did she tell you that?
A. When I asked her if — when I said that Moira was — when I said that I had been visiting Moira in the hospital, and that Moira had said that Marion fondled her breasts in the shower.
Q. What year was this that you had this discussion with Marion Zimmer Bradley?
A. I guess it would have been around 1990.
Q. Did you ever ask Marion if she actually did fondle Moira?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever inquire of Marion whether there was any truth about Moira’s statement that Marion had been touching her breasts when she was in the shower?
A. No, I just told her Moira had said that, and she said that children that age didn’t have erogenous zones.
Q. Did you ask her what she meant by that?
A. No.
Q. Did the statement by Marion Zimmer Bradley that children did not have erogenous zones cause you any concern of any type?
A. No.
Q. Had you ever heard Marion Zimmer Bradley make that statement before?
A. No.
Q. Had you ever heard Marion Zimmer Bradley make any statements to that effect before?
A. No.
Q. Before this time that Moira was in the hospital, had you ever heard anything within the family about allegations that Marion Zimmer Bradley had molested Moira?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever investigate with anyone to find out whether there was any truth to the allegation that Marion Zimmer Bradley had touched Moira Breen’s breasts when she was in the shower?
Q. Did you ask Marion, “Is there any truth to the allegation that Moira has made that you touched her breasts when she was in the shower”?
A. No, I did not ask her that.
Q. What exactly did you say to Marion?
A. That I had been visiting Moira in the hospital and that Moira had complained that Marion had touched her breasts when she was in the shower once.
Q. Okay. And Marion’s response was that children that age don’t have erogenous zones; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What age did you understand that she was talking about?
A. Nine.
Q. So do you understand that Moira alleged that Marion had done this when she was about nine?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you come to that understanding?
A. I believe Moira told me.
Q. So what was the full extent of what Moira told you when she talked to you about the alleged act of Marion touching her breasts?
A. She said that when she was about nine she was in the shower and Marion touched her breast.
Q. And that’s what you related to Marion, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Other than that conversation where you just related to us where you said that Moira had told you that Marion touched her breasts in the shower when she was nine and Marion replied that children that age don’t have erogenous zones, did you ever discuss with Marion Zimmer Bradley at any time up to the present day any allegations of molestation with Moira
A. By Marion?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Later in that deposition:
Q. Had you ever heard that Moira was of the belief that her mother attacked her with a pair of pliers?
A. I think the story you’re talking about is that her mother tied her to a chair and threatened to pull out her teeth with pliers but did not actually touch her.
Q. Had you heard that story before?
A. Yes, from Marion. She was deeply ashamed of it.
Q. When did you hear that story?
A. I don’t remember. Sometime in the 1980’s.
Q. Was it prior to 1989?
A. Probably.
Q. What did Marion tell you about that episode?
A. That Moira kept biting Patrick, and she couldn’t think of any way to stop her, so she tied her to a chair and threatened to pull out all of her teeth with pliers, and Moira became hysterical, and Marion untied her and let her go, and Moira never bit her brother again.
Q. Did anyone ever tell you that Patrick Breen had been molested by Marion Zimmer Bradley?
A. Not exactly.
Q. Okay. Could you explain your answer, please?
A. When the investigation about Kenny was going on, I went to Patrick, who was trying very hard to stay out of this, and asked if Walter had ever molested him, and Patrick said, “No, which is more than I can say for my mother and some of my baby-sitters.”
Q. Anyone else ever make any statements that might have led you to believe that Marion Zimmer Bradley may have molested Patrick Breen?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask Patrick at all what he meant by that statement?
A. No.
Q. Give me the conversation between you and Patrick again, please, regarding the question of whether Walter had ever molested him and what his response was.
A. I asked if Walter had ever molested him, and he said, “No, which is more than I can say about my mother and some of my baby-sitters.”
Q. Did his reply cause you any concern whatsoever that he may have been molested by his mother?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Did you inquire to him any further about what he meant by that statement?
A. No.
Q. Did you undertake any investigation whatsoever to determine whether or not Marion Zimmer Bradley had ever molested her son, Patrick?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask Patrick anything more on the subject of whether he was ever molested by his mother?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask Moira about it ever?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask Walter about it ever?
A. When Moira said that Walter raped her when she was five, I asked Walter about that.
Q. But did you ever ask Walter whether or not he had any facts that would lead him to believe that Marion Zimmer Bradley had molested Patrick?
A. No.
Q. And you never asked Marion whether she molested Patrick; is that correct?
A. No, that is correct, I did not ask her.
Q. Did you ever tell her what Patrick had said?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. At the time, we were all so traumatized that I didn’t want to add to anybody’s trauma anymore than they were already traumatized, and Patrick was an adult at that point, and whatever Marion may have done to him in the past was clearly over.
Q. Did you have any understanding as to what frame in time that this alleged molestation of Patrick had occurred?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask Patrick how old he was when this alleged molestation occurred?
A. No.
Q. So you did nothing further to inquire about this alleged act of molestation by Marion Zimmer Bradley against Patrick; is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Who is [Victim X]?
A. [Victim X] is the kid in the Breen boondoggle, which was a big fannish scandal back when I was in grade school in Connecticut.
Q. [Victim X], when did you first hear about him?
A. I think it was sometime in the 1980’s.
Q. Okay. Do you know approximately when?
A. No.
Q. Was it before Kenny Smith was reported as being molested?
A. Yes.
Q. How long before Kenny Smith had been reported as being molested had you heard about [Victim X]? A. I don’t know.
Q. Can you give me an estimate or approximation?
A. Five years plus or minus three.
*****
Q. Do you know if anybody within the family alerted the agency [Child Protective Services] that placed this child [Barry Austin] in the home thatWalter Breen had written the book Greek Love?
A. No, I don’t know. That was the question, wasn’t it, did I know?
Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether Marion Zimmer Bradley was aware that Walter Breen had written the book Greek Love prior to the placement of this child within the family?
A: Yes.
Q. Can you explain that answer for me?
A. Yes, I believe she did know that he had written the book Greek Love.
Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not the boondoggle had occurred before or after this child was placed within the family?
A. It was before.
Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether Marion Zimmer Bradley alerted the CPS workers that Walter had been accused of molesting [Victim X] prior to this child being placed within the family? A. I do not have knowledge of that.
Q. Do you know if anybody within the family unit notified CPS that Walter had been accused of molesting [Victim X] prior to the placement of this child, Barry, within the family unit? A. I have no knowledge of that.
Q. Prior to the placement of this child, Barry, within the family unit, and this is sometime you said in the 1981 to ’85 time frame; is that correct?
A. I believe it was in 1981.
Q. Okay. Prior to 1981, did you have any understanding as to Walter Breen’s opinions on the issue of sex between men and boys?
A. I don’t know, at some point I knew that he had written a book about man-boy love throughout history, but I didn’t have any idea whether that reflected on his actual current opinions.
Q. Okay. Had you ever discussed the topic of Walter and young boys with Marion Zimmer Bradley prior to the placement of Barry within the home in 1981?
A. Yes, in 19 — I think it was 1980, I saw a letter that Walter had written to his therapist, Dr. Morin, and he said that he missed Sterling — who was another one of the kids who hung around. He was a friend of Patrick’s — not just because he was horny but because — I forget the rest, but that phrase struck me as so odd that I went and asked Marion about it.
Q. And Marion said that Walter had been completely impotent since Moira was two, so I thought that Walter was just bragging to his therapist, you know, the way teenage boys brag to their friends about having scored with their girlfriends when they haven’t, because Walter was about that immature.
Q. Was this prior to the placement of this child within the home, Barry?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was Sterling?
A. Sterling was a friend of Patrick’s.
Q. Did you ever see Walter and Sterling together?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you see?
A. I mean, Sterling hung around the house a lot. He didn’t like his stepfather, so he spent a lot of time at our house.
Q. What time period was this that Sterling was hanging around the house?
A. 1979 to 1981, maybe.
Q. Back at the time that you read the letter, did you undertake any investigation to see whether Walter was acting inappropriately with Sterling other than the discussion that you have mentioned with Marion Zimmer Bradley?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever call Dr. Morin?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever ask Walter about the letter?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. I was cleaning the music room, and I found it on the floor. I picked it up and put it with the rest of his papers. It wasn’t as if he had shown it to me, or it was really any of my business.
Q. Did you think that that letter was odd?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you think that letter — did that letter cause you any concern at the time you read it about the welfare of Sterling?
A. No.
Q. Why did you ask Marion about it then?
A. It just seemed weird.
Q. Okay. Did the fact that Walter was talking about being horny around an underage boy seem more weird than the other things that Walter was doing?
A. No.
Q. Would Walter talk about being horny in relating to underage boys in other context during that time period?
A. No.
Q. And so that didn’t seem any different to you than Walter’s other behavior?
A. I don’t understand the question.
Q. I’m trying to understand. Did you think it was normal behavior, as Walter behaved, to talk about being horny with an underage boy?
A. Yes, because I thought it was sort of teenage,” I’m so great”,” I score”, type thing.
Q. Was it, from your observations of Walter, was it normal for him to be acting in that teenage kind of manner saying,” I’m great”,” I scored”?
A. From my observations of Walter, it was normal for him to be acting very immature.
Q. Had you ever heard Walter acting immature regarding sexuality or sexual issues before this letter you saw of to Dr. Morin?
A. Not to the best of my recollection.
Q. Had you ever heard Walter discuss sexuality in any way with you prior to reading this letter addressed to Dr. Morin?
A. No.
Q. At the point that you read this letter and brought it to Marion’s attention, did you indicate any concern for the welfare of Sterling to Marion?
A. Well, Sterling was a big strapping kid, and I figured that if Walter tried anything Sterling didn’t like, Sterling would flatten him.
Q. How old was Sterling at that time?
A. 15, 16.
*****
Q. When you went through his [Walter’s] property in 1993, did you ever see any pornographic material?
A. There was some photographs. I think the top one on the stack was a naked man, and I sort of looked at them and went, “yuck,” and passed them to Raul, and said “Should we turn these over to the police?” And Raul went through the top couple and he said, “yes.” So we called the police, and the police officer came out and took them, and he told him that Walter had been arrested for child molesting, and that Cynthia Harris had been the investigating officer, and they should probably go to her.
Q. Who was the officer that you turned them over to?
A. I don’t remember. It would have been the officer, whoever they sent out.
Q. How big was this stack of photographs?
A. About half an inch, maybe three-eights of an inch.
Q. Do you know if there are any photographs in there of men with boys?
A. No, I don’t know. I didn’t look at them.
*****
Q. Getting back to this time period sometime in — well, before 1981 when you saw the letter from Dr. Morin, prior to that, had you ever seen anything that caused you any concern about Walter’s conduct around young boys?
A. No.
Q. How long did Barry live with you?
A. Some months, I don’t remember exactly.
Q. Do you know if Walter ever acted in any way inappropriately with Barry during that time period?
A. To the best of my knowledge, no.
Q. Has anyone ever made any allegations that you’re aware of that Walter acted inappropriately during that time period?
A. Barry got arrested or picked up or something about a year later and apparently then he said something, but nobody believed him because the police had already talked to him before, and he denied it.
Q. How did you hear that he had been picked up on a charge a year later?
A. Somebody phoned me, but I don’t remember who.
Q. Do you know if it was someone from a police organization?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. Can you tell me what was discussed in the conversation, to the best of your knowledge?
A. I think it was not the police. I think it was probably some, some — somebody who knew the family, and they said that Barry had been picked up and that he was saying that Walter had molested him.
Q. What did they say about the issue of Walter molesting Barry?
A. Nothing. They just said that Barry was claiming that.
Q. Did you ask Marion about that?
A. No, I don’t think so. Marion may have been away at a convention or something.
Q. Did you ever discuss the possible molestation of Barry Austin with Marion Zimmer Bradley at any point up to the time that Ken Smith’s molestation was reported to the police?
A. No.
Q. Did you undertake any inquire pre the investigation after hearing that Barry had alleged that Walter Breen had molested him?
A. No, I didn’t. Why should I? The police were doing it.
Q. How did you know the police were doing it?
A. Because if he was picked up and he was telling the police that Walter had molested him, presumably the police were investigating this.
Q. Did you say anything back to the person who said to you that Barry was accusing Walter of molesting him?
A. I believe I said that Barry always was a liar.
*****
Q. How did Barry come to live with you?
A. A friend of Walter’s brought him.
Q. Who is the friend of Walter’s who brought him?
A. His name was Richard Khilstadius.
Q. Do you know if he was a priest or clergyman of some sort?
A. Yes.
Q. When he brought him, did Mr. Khilstadius in any way indicate whether or not Barry was a child prostitute?
A. Not that I heard of.
Q. Do you know if Richard Khilstadius has ever been accused of child molestation?
A. I think I sort of heard vague gossip that he might be, but I never heard that anybody actually accused him.
Q. Who did you hear vague gossip from that Richard Khilstadius might be a child molester; who did you hear that from?
A. I don’t really remember.
Q. Did you ever discuss that with Marion?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever discuss it with anyone?
A. No, I was brought up to believe that other people’s sex lives were none of my business.
Q. Through the present time, other than perhaps with counsel, have you ever discussed the issue of this phone call regarding Barry Austin’s molestation?
A. No.
Q. So at this point in time, you read this letter regarding Walter’s statements on Sterling, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you’ve heard, at least, an allegation of Barry Austin that Walter was molesting him, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. At this point are you getting at all concerned about Walter’s interaction with young boys?
A. No.
Q. At this point you’re also aware that Walter has written the book Greek Love, correct?
A. I’m not sure I was aware of it that soon. I think it was a couple years later that I learned about that.
Q. Didn’t you indicate that prior to Mr. Austin coming to live there that you were aware that Walter had authored articles on the issues of men and boys like those contained in Greek Love?
A. I have no knowledge that Walter wrote articles. I know he wrote Greek Love. I don’t remember exactly when I learned he wrote Greek Love, and I did not read Greek Love until I found a copy for Officer Harris in 1989.
Q. Okay. But at this time you read Walter’s letter to Dr. Morin, correct?
A. I saw a paragraph of it.
Q. And you have heard a phone call regarding an allegation of molestation by Barry Austin, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Other than asking Marion about the letter, did you do anything after hearing about Barry Austin’s allegation of molestation to inquire as to whether or not Walter Breen was acting inappropriately with any children on any of the properties owned by Marion Zimmer Bradley?
A. The only property owned at the time was 2221 Prince Street, which was owned jointly by Marion and Walter, and the children living in it were Walter’s own children, so, no.
Q. Did you inquire in any way to find out whether or not Walter was acting inappropriately with the numerous guests that you said were often there who were friends of Moira’s and Patrick’s?
A. No.
*****
Q. Did anyone ever mention anything to you about a young boy being in Walter’s bed at Prince Street?
A. There was one night while Marion and I were still living at Telegraph Avenue when Moira called in the middle of the night and said that Barry Austin was in Walter’s bed. This was after Social Services had taken him back and he was out on the streets again, and Walter didn’t know he was there, but Moira had gotten up in the middle of the night and found them there and called us. And because Barry had been coming back and bothering Moira prior to this, I had told him the time before that if he ever came back again, I would call the police. over to Prince Street, and I did call the police. And the police came, and they woke up Barry, and they asked him what he was doing in Walter’s bed. And he said he was sleeping there because he knew that Walter wouldn’t be there, and then the police sent Marion and me out of the room, and they talked to Barry.
Q. Did the police ask you any further questions about what Barry was doing in Walter’s
A. No.
Q. How long after Barry had moved out did this occur?
A. Six months, maybe.
Q. Did Moira indicate to you that she thought there was something inappropriate going on between Barry and Walter?
A. No, she was just furious to find him on the property.
Q. Did you ever ask Walter what Barry was doing in his bed?
A. No.
Q. Was Walter home when the police came?
A. Yes, I believe he was working in the music room, which is upstairs at the other end of the house.
Q. Do you know if the police interviewed Walter at all about what Barry was doing in his bed?
A. I think they must have, but I don’t remember for certain.
Q. Did Barry have his own bed when he lived at the house?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. What was the room that Barry occupied when he was living in the house?
A. It was one of the downstairs bedrooms. The bedrooms are sort of — there is a room, and there are two bedrooms off of it, and he was in the middle room. Patrick’s bedroom was off one side and Moira’s bedroom was off the other.
Q. And where was Walter’s in relationship to those?
A. After that there is the laundry room, the hall, the bathroom and Walter’s room.
Q. Was anybody living in Barry’s room the night that he was in Walter’s bed?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. As far as you know, was Barry’s bed available for Barry to sleep in the night that he was found in Walter’s bed?
A. I don’t know, but Moira would have found him there much faster because it was right next to her room, so if he was trying to hide from Moira, Walter’s bed was a better bet.
Q. When you say “hide from Moira,” why would he be hiding from Moira?
A. Because Moira hated his guts and didn’t want him on the property, and he wasn’t supposed to be there. I mean, he had committed an unlawful entry, for starters.
Q. Was he arrested for that, do you know?
A. The police took him away. I don’t know if they finally arrested him.
*****
Q. Did you have any understanding as to what frame in time that this alleged molestation of Patrick had occurred?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask Patrick how old he was when this alleged molestation occurred?
A. No.
Q. So you did nothing further to inquire about this alleged act of molestation by Marion Zimmer Bradley against Patrick; is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
*****
Q. Are you aware of what the term “satanic ritual
abuse” means?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. Has Moira Breen ever told you that she believes that she was a victim of satanic ritual abuse?
A. Yes.
Q. What do you understand satanic ritual abuse to be?
A. People who worship Satan who, as part of their ritual, abuse children or, I suppose, adults would count too.
Q. Have you ever worshipped Satan?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever observed any satanic rituals?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever participated in any satanic worship services?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever practiced Wicca?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever practiced black magic?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever practiced paganism?
A. I have attended some pagan rituals, and I was active for a while in the Dark Moon Circle. I was sort of tagging after Marion while she was doing research for Mists of Avalon.
Q. Did Moira Breen ever indicate to you that she felt that she had been the victim of satanic ritual abuse?
A. Could you give me a time frame?
Q. Ever.
A. Yes.
Q. When?
A. After all of the investigation with Kenny.
Q. After or during?
A. After the investigation with Kenny started.
Q. Can you give me an approximate time frame when you had this discussion with Moira?
A. I think it was while he was in the hospital, with the CPS in Laguna Hills.
Q. Could you please tell me what Moira Breen told you about her belief that she had been a victim of satanic ritual abuse?
A. She said that some men in white robes tied her up and hung her on the wall and poured hot coffee on her and spilled, I think, spilled hot wax on her skin and killed a baby in front of her and killed a grown-up in front of her and gave her something to eat and told her — something to eat — some funny meat and told her it was her baby brother, and she has never had a baby brother. She said a lot of stuff, and none of it made sense.
*****
Q. At the time that you rented the property to Walter Breen in 1986, were you aware that he had authored the book Greek Love?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. The time that you rented the property to Walter Breen in 1986, were you aware of the allegation that had been made against him by Barry?
A. Yes.
Q. At the time that you rented this property to Walter Breen in 1986, were you aware of the allegation that had been raised against Walter regarding his molestation of [Victim X]? A. I don’t believe so.
Q. At the time that you rented this property to Walter Breen in 1986, were you aware that Walter Breen had been the subject of some controversy at the WorldCon regarding the molestation of a child?
A. No.
Q. At the time that you rented the property to Walter Breen in 1986, were you aware of any allegations against him that he had molested his own children?
A. No.
Q. At the time that you rented the property to Walter Breen in 1986, were you aware in any way about Walter Breen’s beliefs concerning sex between men and children?
A. No, I don’t really think so.
Q. I want you not to guess or speculate. To remember if you can give me your best testimony as to whether or not at that point in time you had any knowledge whatsoever regarding Walter Breen’s idealogies concerning sex between men and boys at the time that you rented him this property in 1986.
A. Well, I think at this point I knew he had written Greek Love, but I wasn’t sure. I didn’t know exactly what the book was about.
Q. Did you have any understanding, even though you weren’t sure exactly what it was about, did you have any understanding as to whether or not the subject matter of that book involved relations between men and young boys?
A. I understood it involved relations between men and young boys in ancient Greece.
Q. At that time in 1986, did you have any understanding as to what Walter Breen’s beliefs were regarding the age of consensual sex between people?
A. I think I may have heard him say that he thought the age of consent should be lower than 18.
Q. Did you ever ask him what age he thought it should be lowered to?
A. No, I told him I didn’t agree with him.
Q. So prior to renting the property to Walter Breen, you had heard him say that he believed that he thought the age should be lowered below 18?
A. Yes, I believe so.
Q. Did you have any further discussions with him on that issue at any time prior to renting him the property in 1986?
A. I don’t think I had a discussion with him on the issue. I think I heard him arguing with Marion about it.
Q. Okay. Can you tell me what you can recall about his argument with Marion on the issue of the age of consent being lowered below the age of 18?
A. I think he said something vaguely sympathetic about NAMBLA, and Marion said — N-a-m-b-l-a — and Marion said that you were always seeing dirty old men march for the right to have sex with young boys, but you certainly didn’t see young boys marching for the right to have sex with dirty old men. She was very cross with him.
Q. Do you know if Marion Zimmer Bradley had read Greek Love?
A. I think she read parts of it. I don’t know that she had read the whole thing.
Q. Were you aware that Greek Love was dedicated to Marion Zimmer Bradley?
A. Not until I found a copy for Officer Harris.
Q. Do you know if Marion Zimmer Bradley was aware that book had been dedicated to her?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Marion Zimmer Bradley was an owner of the property rented to Walter; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know if Marion Zimmer Bradley had read the book Greek Love prior to renting the property to Walter Breen?
A. I don’t know for sure, no.
Q. At the time that you rented this property to Walter Breen, you knew that he had written a letter to Dr. Morin, correct?
A. I had long since forgotten about it.
Q. But you had knowledge of that letter prior to renting the property to Walter Breen, correct?
A. I had had knowledge of it, yes.
Q. And so had Marion Zimmer Bradley, correct?
A. Assuming she was listening to me when I talked to her, yes.
Q. Well, she had actually responded to you then?
A. Yes.
Q. Prior to renting the property to Walter Breen, did you and Marion Zimmer Bradley discuss his fitness as a tenant?
A. No.
Q. Prior to renting the property to Walter Breen, did you and Marion Zimmer Bradley in any way discuss any allegations of Walter being a child molester?
A. No.
Q. Have you, since this all came out with Kenny Smith, been made aware of any other allegations of Walter’s molestation of children other than Ken Smith, the young boy down in L.A., Barry — I believe you referenced Sterling, and \[Victim X\]? **A.** Moira was instantly convinced that Walter had molested every child he had ever been near, so to that extent, yes, I have heard other allegations.
*****
Q. At some point did you become concerned that Walter’s behavior might cause liability for MZB Enterprises?
A. After I found out what he had done to Kenny, yes, I became concerned that his behavior would cause future liability.
Q. Were you concerned that it might cause the loss of one or more of the houses as well?
A. Well, since he and Marion owned 2221 Prince Street as husband and wife, I was concerned that it might cause the loss of that house if he were sued.
Q. Did Marion Zimmer Bradley ever tell you that if Walter ever molested children again she would divorce him?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any doubt in your mind as to whether or not Walter Breen molested Ken Smith?
A. Well, yes, I do have a little bit. When I read the police report, I could tell that Kenny was lying to Officer Harris.
Q. So do you believe that Walter Breen molested Ken Smith?
A. I believe he may have done it once, but I don’t believe all the stuff that’s in the police report.
Q. Did you ever investigate to find out if he had done it more than once?
A. No.
*****
Q. Were you ever informed that Walter was giving drugs to children?
A. Moira said that he used to give her marijuana to put in the spaghetti sauce to cook for him.
Q. When did Moira tell you this?
A. Sometime when she was in her late teens, I think.
Q. Did you find that to be inappropriate?
A. Well, I didn’t think that you should give drugs to children, so, yes.
Q. Did you ever ask Walter about it?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever undertake any investigation to find out whether or not Walter was giving drugs to children after Moira had reported that to you sometime in her teens?
A. No.
Q. Did you learn that information from Moira that Walter was giving her drugs to put in the spaghetti sauce prior to renting him the premises in 1986?
A. I think so.
Q. Did you ever learn any information about Walter Breen giving drugs to anyone other than Moira Breen?
A. I believe that Patrick Breen used marijuana as a teenager, but I don’t know where he got it.
Q. Do you have any information as to whether or not Walter Breen ever smoked marijuana with Patrick Breen when Patrick Breen was under the age of 18?
A. I never saw either of them smoke marijuana, but they smelled funny a lot.
Q. Were you at all concerned about the rental of the apartment to Walter Breen if you knew that he was giving marijuana to his children prior to 1986?
A. By 1986 his children were adults, so that was not a concern if, in fact, he was giving them marijuana.
*****
Q. Okay. Was your and Marion’s departure from the Prince Street address connected in any way with the episode of finding young boys in Walter’s bed?
A. What departure from the Prince Street address?
Q. I’m just going from what Moira told us. She indicated that you and Marion departed Prince Street after a young boy was found in Walter’s bed, and I’m wondering if you have any information about that allegation by Moira?
A. If she’s talking about when she was complaining about Walter’s behavior with [other name] in 1981; that was when Walter left Prince Street, and Marion and I moved in. Q. Okay. What behavior are we talking about relating to [other name] in 1981? A. Moira complained that her father was trying to steal her friends.
Q. Did Moira complain that her father was trying to seduce her friends?
A. No.
Q. Did Moira complain that her father was trying to steal her friends in any way relate to anything of a sexual nature?
A. No.
Q. Did Moira ever complain to you that she felt her father was trying to pick up her friends in a sexual manner?
A. No.
Q. Did Moira ever complain to you that she thought her father and [other name] were engaged in sex together? A. No.
Q. Did anyone ever inform you that they believed that Walter and [other name] were engaged in sexual conduct? A. No.
Q. Did you ever talk to Walter about Moira’s belief that Walter was trying to steal her friends?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever ask Moira what she meant by that?
A. No.
Q. Did you undertake any investigation to find out what Moira meant when she said Walter was trying to steal her friends?
A. No.
*****
Q. Did Marion ever discuss with you any of her beliefs regarding the age of consent?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell me when she first discussed that with you?
A. No, not the exact date. But she said repeatedly that anyone who molested a child under the age of puberty should get the death penalty.
Q. Do you know what she meant by the age of puberty?
A. Puberty, as in physical puberty.
Q. You indicated that Marion thought that anyone who had sex with a child under the age of puberty ought to be thrown in jail, correct?
A. Death sentence. Pass puberty should go to jail.
Q. Past puberty should go to jail?
A. Yeah, in other words if you molest a 16 year old, you should go to jail. If you molest Kenny, you should get the death penalty. And I asked her if she included Walter in that, and she said, yes.
Q. Did Walter continue to work for MZB Enterprises after the charges of molestation came up on Ken Smith?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Walter continue to work for MZB Enterprises after he pled guilty to the molestation of Ken Smith?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know why Walter Breen continued to work for MZB Enterprises after he pled guilty to molesting a child under the age of puberty?
A. Because, unfortunately, when I wrote his contract, I didn’t put a clause in it to allow us to fire him under those circumstances.
Q. Had anyone told you that you couldn’t fire Walter Breen before the termination of his contract?
A. Well, no, but the contract was written with a specific term and did not provide for firing him.
Q. So was it your understanding that you couldn’t fire Walter Breen before the expiration of his contract?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you get that understanding from?
A. My own very imperfect understanding of the law.
*****
Q. Did you ever meet Sean Sullivan?
A. Not to the best of my recollection.
Q. Do you know who Sean Sullivan is?
A. I believe he’s the guy that Walter was accused of molesting in Los Angeles.
Q. Are you aware of any of the charges regarding Sean Sullivan and Walter Breen?
A. Child molesting.
Q. Are you aware of any charge involving molestation which occurred when Sean was in Berkeley?
A. No.
Q. Are you aware of whether there were any allegations of Sean was molested in the hob tub at Green Walls?
A. No.
Q. Was Walter prohibited from having young boys as guests at the goldfish bowl after the charges of molestation were brought concerning Ken Smith?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that done in writing or verbally or how?
A. It was part of his probation. He wasn’t allowed to be with people under 18.
Q. Let me ask a different question. After the charges regarding Ken Smith arose, did you undertake any activity to prohibit Walter Breen from having any young children on any of the premises owned by yourself or Marion Zimmer Bradley?
A. I believe Marion did.
Q. Do you know how that was done?
A. I think she wrote him a letter.
Q. Do you know where that letter is today?
A. No.
Q. Did she keep copies of most of her correspondence?
A. No, usually not.
Q. Do you know what the letter said?
A. No.
Q. Did you read that letter?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. Did Marion draft her own correspondence, or did you draft it, for the most part?
A. Well, since part of her correspondence is answering her fan mail, I do most of it, but for her own personal correspondence, she usually does it.
Q. Do you recall whether you prepared the letter sent to Walter or Marion did?
A. Marion did.
Q. Did you know what the contents of the letter was in any way?
A. I gathered she was saying she was very angry with him and disgusted by his behavior and didn’t want — I think she said she didn’t want him on the property at Green Walls.
Q. Anything else?
A. (Witness shakes head.)
Q. Do you know if she still undertook any activity to remove him from the property at Green Walls?
A. She told him she didn’t want him on the property.
Q. Do you know if he ever came back to the property at Green Walls?
A. Yes, he did. She calmed down later or something, I guess.
Q. Did you have any understanding as to why Marion Zimmer Bradley would permit this gentleman who pled guilty to child molestation back on her property?
A. Well, he was her ex-husband and the father of her two young children, and she was, after all, fond of him. He used to come over in the afternoons and have a cup of tea with her, but he didn’t bring other people with him after that.
*****
Q. After the allegations of Ken Smith came up, did you ever discuss with Walter his molestation of any other children?
A. No.
Q. After the allegations of molestation with Ken Smith came up, did you ever discuss with Walter the allegations of molestation of Ken Smith?
A. I asked him if he was true, and he didn’t deny it.
Q. Anything else?
A. Okay. First, I asked him why his bank account was overdrawn, and he said he had written a check for $5,000 to hire a lawyer because Officer Harris wanted to talk to him, and at that point I began to really seriously believe he was guilty of the accusations made about his behavior with Kenny. A couple of days later I asked him if he really performed oral sex on Kenny, and he said, “yes.” No, actually he asked me who told me, and I said Mary Mason did, and he said he didn’t know she was talking about it, and I said, “Well, she did to me.” So he didn’t actually say, yes, but he didn’t deny it. And then sometime later, I forgot how the subject originally came up, but I said, “How could you do that to an 11 year old?” And Walter said, “He was 12.”
Q. Anything else?
A. You mean like his exact words?
Q. Correct.
A. “He was 12 and besides he wasn’t a virgin.”
Q. Okay. Anything else that he said that you can recall in any of these three conversations regarding whether or not he actually molested Ken Smith?
A. Well, he seemed to think that it didn’t matter because Kenny didn’t care about it and Mary didn’t care about it; that it was okay because Kenny and Mary didn’t object.
*****
Q. Did it concern you that a man who advocated beliefs that laws against sex with children were designed to prevent them from having fun was living in your property?
A. I felt there is — I felt, and still feel, that there is a difference between belief and behavior. I did not necessarily equate the one with the other, so, no, it did not concern me. Walter expressed a lot of crazy beliefs.
Q. Did you know, around that time in 1987, that Walter also believed children should be allowed to have drugs?
A. Yeah, I think I did.
Q. Okay. Did it concern you that a man who thought that children should be allowed to have drugs was living on your premises?
A. I didn’t think making him move would change his views.
Q. Okay. Did you do anything to try to make him change his views?
A. I told him I thought he was an idiot.
Q. But you continued to allow him to live on your premises, correct?
A. Berkeley has very strict eviction laws. You can’t evict someone just on their beliefs, or their personal beliefs, if he was not acting on them. I would actually have to prove that he was dealing drugs on the property in order to evict them.
Q. Do you ever undertake any investigation to find out whether he was giving drugs to children at that time?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever undertake any investigation to find out whether he was acting out his beliefs that children should not be denied the opportunity to have sex?
A. I believed he was impotent. I assumed he was not.
Q. Did you undertake any investigation to find out whether he was acting out those beliefs on your property?
A. No.
Q. At any time prior to the molestation of Kenny Smith in 1989, did you undertake any investigation to find out whether Walter Breen was acting out his belief regarding sex with children on your property?
A. No.
Q. Have you and Marion Zimmer Bradley ever been romantically involved?
A. Yes.
Q. From what time period?
A. 1978 to about 1985, I think.
Later in the deposition:
Q. Were you ever concerned that Walter was sexually attracted to any of these boys between the ages of 15 and 22?
A. No, I thought he was impotent.
Q. Well, I’m not asking whether he was sexually involved, but whether he was sexually attracted to them?
A. If you’re impotent, aren’t you not sexually attracted?
Q. It doesn’t appear to be in Walter’s case, but, I mean, you’re asking my opinion now, and I don’t think you want that. It appears that he was very active.
A. It was my belief that if you are impotent, you’re not sexually attracted.
Note: This page originally appeared at http://sff.net/people/stephen.goldin/mzb/Lisa_Excerpts.html, but that subsite is permanently offline. Stephen Goldin’s new site is here, but it does not contain the MZB tree (that I found). Apart from bringing the code up to HTML5, adjusting URLs to my own naming system. What precedes the rule above this paragraph is the deposition in unaltered form.