I have never & would never contact the victim of a crime & ask her 2 help get perpetrator out. That is crazy 2 even suggest!
— Jaid Black (@jaidblack) January 22, 2015
For those who don’t know, Tina Engler (majority owner of Ellora’s Cave, pseudonym Jaid Black) used to be married apparently still is married to David Keen, who is serving a life sentence for first-degree murder and attempted second-degree murder. You can see his mugshot and history here. From this case ruling:
Angela Jeffers testified that Karen Stewart (her mother) terminated a relationship with the Defendant about two weeks before the murder, that the Defendant was mad, and that they argued about it. Ms. Jeffers testified that on the day of the murder, Karen Stewart told Ms. Jeffers that the Defendant had told Karen Stewart he was “going to fuck her shit up.” Later that day, Ms. Jeffers testified that she saw the Defendant grab Karen Stewart’s hair, that he had a gun in his hand, and that she heard two shots.
With that in mind, let’s look at this 2007 2011 comment from Angela (on a 2007 post), which I am reposting in full, and keep in mind that the blog post is about Tina Engler talking about her marriage to a convicted murderer in this (archived) interview over here:
This blog hits home to me because I am also a vitcum of her husband in the case he is serving a life sentence for.
The young womans name that was murdered is Karen also! I am Angela, Karen Stewart’s daughter. One of his charges are for attempted murder against me because after shooting my mother he shot at me and thankfully the bullet wizzed by my head.
I was 14 then and am almost 32 now. That was how old she was when he took her from us (for the rest of our lives).
She was an amazing woman and mother. My daughter is 8 and my step daughter is 14 and they have more heart and brains than this Black woman. Thank you so much for taking up for the victum (my mother)and our family.
Neither of those idiots have any remorse.
A few years ago she contacted me trying any way she could to find a reason to get here low life, “Poor” and “Uneducated” husband, David Keen, out of prison. I was shocked and disgusted.
To respond to Mrs. Tina Marie Keens, AKA Jade Black’s statment, YES he deserves to be alone and have lousy medical, rotten fruits and vegetables and no family.
My brother and I were left without a mother and our children have no grandmother. His victim is DEAD and we have a hole in our lives and are consequently victims and his incarceration is of great value to us and we ALL think he is where he belongs, FOREVER, just as my mother is unfortunatly where she is FOREVER. In that lousy prison system that I am so thankful for.
Angela commented again on this post, and this is her comment in full:
Hello,
This is Angela, Karen Stewarts daughter again. I commented on the post and noticed after how the end of my comment sounded like my mother was the one, or also is in prison. I tried to edit my comment but every time I scrolled down it automatically went back to the top and I could not edit it.
Anon 76’s comment edit is just how I meant to say it. And yes, I am not a writer and am very passionate about the subject.
Karen Scott, your paraphrase is correct. That is just how I feel. This is that young girl and I am still devasted by his actions. I miss my mother very much and not a day goes by that I do not want her or need her to be here. When good things happen in my life like my marrage, my children and other good experiences I do not have my special person (my mother) to share it with. When bad things happen or life is looking terrible, I do not have that special person to help me through and/or console me. I need my mother and that worthless animal took her.
When you read or hear about something like what happened to my mother and us, you may feel sad but you will never know how truely sad it is or how it effects everyday of the rest of your life unless it happens to someone you love. By the way my brother also was there and witness the low-life kill our mother.
I do not know how Tina Engler found my number but when she contacted me I could barely speak and had to give the phone to my husband. She told him how David had changed and that he deserved to be out of prison. That I was grown up and am alright now. My husband told her that I was not alright and will never be alright for the rest of my life. That what David did will haunt me forever. And it will and has effected our children forever. He told her to leave us alone.
I did contact an attorney about it but they unfortunatly said there was nothing that could be done. I did not know anything about Engler at the time. I have recently found out she is an author. I was so suprised to find this blog and it made me feel good that people cared.
Also, my mother was not married to him as someone commented. And to let everyone know the reason David Keen killed my mother, she realized how bad of a person he was and was leaving him. He told her that if he could not have her no one else will either. Then he shot her.
He very well deserves to be where he is, among other things.
Thanks everyone for caring.
I’ll let you figure out which story you think is true on this one. I agree with Glance:
This is a big reason why I have trouble believing JB's other denials. #notchilled
— At a Glance Romance (@ataglanceRMC) January 22, 2015
(Note: I do not believe that prisoners should be treated inhumanely, so I do not believe they should get “lousy medical, rotten fruits and vegetables.”)
I’m really confused as to why Engler felt the need to address the issue on Twitter at all. I found the story through Karen’s blog months ago when I independently searched for EC stuff. It was kind of buried, you’d only find it if you were really looking back a few years. I do not remember seeing anyone bring it into the discussion about the Dear Author case on the #notchilled hashtag, which was what I thought Engler was responding to with that barrage of tweets about the nut, free speech & the DA case, all of which are issues she shouldn’t be commenting on, so I’m having a hard time understanding the motivation behind that Twitter rant.
Unless, she’s just seeking attention.
It was brought up in comments on my blog, though. I really have no idea if she’s reading it on a regular basis, but she did screenshot a comment from here in one post she wrote.
Okay, so why wouldn’t Engler respond to the comments on your blog, then? Why Twitter?
Come to think of it: the nut operates the same way…months ago, the nut tried to start a discussion with me about details in some early journalism on the DA case I’d shared on the hashtag. The nut wouldn’t go to comment on the piece at the website, instead it made many, many attempts to discuss it on Twitter. That ended with me telling the nut to fuck off and it blocking my account, even though it still tries to talk to me on twitter, LOL.
I wondered that too, especially given her commenting over on The Passive Voice (leading to the Milano incident).
Please note that Angela’s first comment quoted here is from April 2011. The interview and Karen’s post about it are both from 2007. After Angela commented on that old post, Karen posted Angela’s comment in full on a second post in 2011, and then Angela commented again there.
Also, I may be wrong, but I believe that Tina Engler has always been pretty aware of Karen Scott’s criticism of her, so I’m just a little surprised that it took so long for her to deny contacting Angela. We are not talking four months, but almost four years since Angela posted that at Karen’s blog, after all.
Yeah, I belatedly realized that the two comments were in the same time period after I went to bed (and had already scheduled the post for morning). I’ll add a clarifying note.
Fixed, thanks for the note. It was on my agenda to re-examine this morning and ping you if needed. I was pretty bleary-eyed last night.
My belief is that Tina may be experiencing a situation where she is being called out by many people that do not believe in her truthfulness. She may be lashing out because all the rationalizations, excuses and justifications aren’t doing her much good in the face of reality. All those people armed with inconvenient truths, facts and the rule of law on their side just won’t shut up. Therefore it is possible that she feels that she has to respond to anything that reflects negatively on her. In this particular instance I know whose story seems credible and whose denial seems suspect.
Is is remotely plausible that Tina is guilty of nothing that has been attributed to her. It could be a vast coordinated conspiracy. Or not. I certainly know where I would place my bet but luckily for Tina the only damage she receives from my opinion is in the lack of access her company now has to my wallet and the likelihood that I will relentless mock the delusional rantings of her anonymous #1 supporter.
As for my opinion of her defense of her young, poor, uneducated murderer of a husband/ex-husband that she claims was remorseful of his mistake? He was 23 and he shot a mother of two, twice in the head at point blank range, attempted to kill her 14 year old daughter then fled the scene and hid in an attempt to evade responsibility. He wasn’t that young and no one is that uneducated that they don’t know that is not acceptable behavior in this or any society and what does poor have to do with knowing right from wrong?
It is also never acceptable behavior to contact the victim of a terrible crime to plead for favors for the perpetrator. That takes a special kind of self-centered belief that your needs surmount anyone else’s rights.
Exactly.
Can you say, “Narcissistic Personality Disorder,” boys and girls?
I have no opinion about where Mr. Keen is on the scale of human decency today, nor where he was when this lobbying occurred. I am definitely one of those people who believe that people can and do change for the better (and also for the worse)—but that those changes are based on the person’s perceived needs, not on any outside influences. Including spouses.
Normally, I’d say parole hearings are the only appropriate places for such lobbying (since that’s what they’re for), but I recall (perhaps incorrectly) that he was sentenced to life with no possibility of parole.
I thought I’d found prior convictions at one point, but now I can’t find a page that looks familiar. Not sure now if I’d found some other David Keen (there are others w/convictions). Bah.
This is the David Keen in question.
Also, his record/file on mugshots.com.
Thank you, that’s exactly the page I was looking for because it lists his prior convictions.
If you go to Karen’s post in 2007 and scroll down the comments, you’ll find some interesting/slightly skeevy information. Susan Edwards commented a few times, and there is a link (and quoted text) from an article about TE that Ms Edwards wrote for the paper she worked for prior to EC.
I cannot find some of the original blog posts (not on Karen’s) on the Wayback Machine, and I’m sure I don’t want to spend a few hours searching TE/JB’s own blog for the posts referenced there, but there are some old accusations of bizarre behaviour on TE/JB that have been floating around for a long, long time.
I re-read some of those old comments last night. SMH.
It would be interesting to re-find all those. Maybe if there’s a lull in the case I’ll have some time. Not today, though. 🙂
My question is: What possible reason would this poor woman have to make up a story like that? TE is nothing to her, she wouldn’t even be on her radar if she hadn’t been contacted…
On behalf of her family, I will definitely back her up in saying that when someone you love dies in a regular fashion–sickness, disease, accident–it’s entirely different than when someone you love has been murdered. And it’s really hard to put those differences into words…
For my family(who lost someone when her partner also murdered her for leaving him), it’s not even the shock of the incident that digs the hooks in so deeply… Death is often a surprise for people–you deal with it, it gets better over time and it’s most shocking how mundane it can be(even when sad). But when it’s because of violence… you never can let go of knowing how much horror she faced in her last minutes when she ran or tried to fight back. And the fear you know she felt for her children…. all that. It’s not something that ever goes away. It’s not simply about wrongful death, it’s about the horror.
It doesn’t matter if Keen is rehabilitated… it doesn’t even matter to me if he’s suffering(though I can understand why it matters to the family), he deserves incarceration. If he’s reformed, let him make a life for himself within the prison by helping others… or whatever. He doesn’t deserve freedom because he’s suddenly sorry…
(And TE’s protestations of innocence? They echo because they’re so hollow…)
I’m of the opinion that people who commit a single crime of passion, even murder, shouldn’t automatically be given a life sentence. I feel differently once it becomes first-degree, however, and also if there is a prior history of violence.
i do support prison reform. I have investigated the statistics & research surrounding capital punishment and the socio-economic realities of this underclass but NOTHING surmounts or trumps the grief, shock & horror of the family & friends of the victim. What has been taken from them can NEVER be restored. Not their loved one, not their innocence & not their sense that the world is a fair place. While I support compassion for those incarcerated I can never place their rights above the rights of those whose grievances can never be reconciled.
You and I both know what it’s like to lose someone close to us, and I know that we understand this in a way that others who haven’t been there can’t.
One of my stepcousins was murdered, but not at a time when I was close to that side of the family. I know my stepfamily is still grieving about it. I remember him as an annoying kid my sister’s age I was growing to like, but I hadn’t seen him in 10-20 years when he was murdered.
Deirdre, you’ve been an outstanding support for all those that EC’s wretched defamation suit hurt and those who continue to suffer from the company’s shady business practices. I admire the extraordinary effort you’ve put into keeping fans informed. I’ve become a fan of your creativity, energy and boundless curiosity. And I feel fairly safe here on your blog, so I hope you’ll tolerate the following.
I’m uncomfortable about being unable to answer one question for myself.
If the force behind EC had been Thomas Engler instead of Tina, would the nature of the uproar have been the same? Would we have been as offended by the off-the-wall posts on Facebook, her strange selfies and her middle finger salute? Would the #notchilled Twitter thread have reached the same level of angry glee? Would bizarre past episodes like the one under discussion above have been drawn into a freedom of speech vs. SLAPP debate?
I truly cannot answer the question. There are a lot of confounding variables. Thomas Engler would have been very unlikely to marry a woman convicted of murder. Thomas probably wouldn’t have posted pictures of himself with odd hair styles and exaggerated makeup flipping the bird on Facebook. He would have been less likely to put that “I’m the victim here” post on EC’s site.
Please don’t get me wrong. I deplore EC’s SLAPP suit and what has emerged about how authors and employees have been treated. I fear the growing ability of business to control the media and all that implies. But I can’t shake the feeling that there’s another dynamic at work in the reaction to JB/TE. I’m not sure what it is, and it nags at me.
I fought long and hard with myself about whether it’s better to feel differently than many and keep silent, or to speak up. So, thank you, Deirdre, for allowing me to use your forum to get it off my chest.
Mzcue, if I may? A few years ago, a male lawyer by the name Charles Carreon brought a defamation suit against Matt Inman/The Oatmeal. There are many and vast differences to the two cases, but there are also some striking similarities to how the person bringing the suit behaved.
If you have a week or so worth of time to invest, I will suggest you go to Popehat (lawyer group blog) and read everything Funnyjunk/Charles Carreon/Oatmeal related. (You can also read a short condensed version, through a handful of posts, in my blog.)
Mind you, I have no idea whether there was twitter or not (I’m not on twitter myself, though I lurk), but the level of vitriol directed at Charles Carreon, his personality, psychological state, behaviour, career, intellectual capacity, etc., was a large order of magnitude larger than anything that has happened with TE/JB.
So my answer is yes, yes–when the behaviour reaches this level of bizarre, the response will often equally gleefully angry, regardless of the genres involved.
However, I confess that in the past few weeks I became quite uncomfortable with the suggestion of mental illness (i.e., “off her meds,” etc) particularly in the wake of the conversation of how often it’s used as a short cut for malice/evil, while hurting the many people who have legitimate mental illness issues and yet are decent, reasonable people.
Here’s one of your posst on the Funnyjunk/Oatmeal situation.
I’m also uncomfortable with the allusions to mental illness. I may have inadvertently helped propagate them with my tweets about Nutlandia, land of strange assertions and non-Euclidean geometry. That is not actually intended to imply “crazy” in any sense, just: WTF? Because, after all, lots of sane people have random weird (and wrong) opinions about how things work.
I didn’t truly understand mental illness until I suffered from crippling depression after my husband died. For me, it was a temporary situation (about 18 months for the worst of it), but it gave me real compassion and insight into people who struggle with depression their whole lives.
Actually, that piece was cross-posted in full, with permission, from Dear Author.
This one, though, is all mine.
The thing is, the Oatmeal suit ended relatively quickly–not in vain did Inman raise close to a quarter million dollars in no time at all.
Carreon, however, decided to continue and escalate his utterly baffling and egregiously bizarre behaviour, which includes creating a RAPEutation website wherein he posted some things that were both offensive to the nth degree and, in a couple of cases, defamatory.
And because that wasn’t enough, he brought suit against a satirical blogger–and harassed this person by calling his employer (sounds slightly familiar?)
Wow, WTF?
I remembered that the Inman suit ended quickly, but hadn’t heard about the rest. I have some reading to do.
I can say, having been in the science fiction community, that I very definitely would have had the same response to a hypothetical Thomas. Most of the people I’ve criticized in sf/f have been male, with a couple of notable exceptions (e.g., Marion Zimmer Bradley).
But, as you say, none of them have given quite the WTFery quotient as this situation.
This doesn’t mean that men can’t, though. I’m reminded of an early Usenet kook, Koos Nolst Trenite who would counsel L. Ron Hubbard from the beyond. When he was elected Kook of the Month, he was honored, and I felt weirdly proud that “our” kook won. His daughter committed suicide and rumors were propagated for years that he’d killed her (or contributed to killing her) in a fit of crazy, when really he (understandably) needed help after her death.
I honestly didn’t know the first thing about Jaid Black/Tina Engler before the DA post went up. I’d read a few Ellora’s Cave books (I have about two dozen. I found purchases for 24 that I know were EC books, but I have so many books, I may have bought one or two others.)
Your point about internalized misogyny stands: I try to check my reactions, and I probably fail at times. Sometimes, that may even be with JB/TE. I think it’s something we always need to be conscious of.
For me, being new to the romance community, it’s very strange to be in a crowd mostly consisting of women for, well, the first time in my entire life apart from certain times in college.
BTW, I’m one of those people who prefer to be called out when I cross a line into insensitivity.
One of the areas I’m working on and perhaps most behind in is sensitivity toward the non-neurotypical, and trying to adopt new words and phrasings for WTFery has been a challenge for me.
So: thank you.
No, thank you, all of you. Can’t tell you how relieved I am.
I went through a similar though much briefer reaction to some of the stuff being said about Kathleen Hale after her bizarre Guardian article. Since the organized posting of hate messages and down-voting by author street teams on Goodreads was a significant part of the larger story, I was taken aback to see fellow blog fans doing it to Hale. I had felt safe enough on one popular romance blog to call the retaliatory attacks on Hale kind of “creepy,” and got my head handed to me in a basket. I decided that the larger issue was way more important than starting a kerfuffle, so I didn’t respond and dropped out of that blog’s following. Never felt good about it though.
So in a way, your thoughtful reaction and those of others above are a balm for my bruised conscience. I hope I can learn to never back down, too.
If I ever had a street team, I’d tell them not to hate on people critical of me. John Scalzi’s done this, and I really respect him for that. Obviously, that doesn’t mean the street team will honor the author’s wishes, but I think it’s important for an author to take a position in those situations. Recently, I recall KJ Charles being criticized for not taking a position. (I happen to remember this one because I have all KJ’s Magpie books on my TBR pile.)
Also, I think what Hale did was completely reprehensible.
For those reading who may not know about the Kathleen Haie situation, here’s an excellent post on SBTB.